The Senseless Recovery
By Mr Practical Sep 15, 2009 1:25 pm
The Fed's strategy is puffing a lot of hot air.
Talking to an old friend about the US economic “recovery,” we see no profit growth from extremely discounted levels, no revenue growth, and no employment growth.
We see more than 100% of GDP growth as completely dependent on government(s) spending.
The Federal Housing Administration has issued more than a trillion dollars in mortgages this year, picking up where Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac left off (they really haven’t stopped either). Delinquency rates are approaching 17%.
Real GDP may be positive for the quarter, but when the government is involved there are lots of shenanigans.
For example, we've heard it plans to deduct the cash rebate for cars from the sales price, thus lowering the GDP deflator and artificially raising the reported real GDP number.
Senseless.
It’s all a game of perception. An economy is a physical system, and in the long run it will react as such.
Recent history has seen economic growth stimulated by government(s) artificially lowering interest rates to get the consumer to borrow, which leads to companies building inventory, which leads to hiring, which leads to economic expansion.
This time around, the consumer is so levered that will not happen. The Fed itself has worried about this in papers as the “zero bound interest rate problem.”
This is a balance sheet contraction, a credit bust. You even hear the government saying it'll take years to recover. It'll take years for the consumer to delever (unwillingly).
I think most stock buyers know this, but aren't buying stocks because they think the economy will recover and profits will too.
I think a lot of people are buying stocks to 1. catch up with other buyers, and 2. because they're worried about “inflation".
I've written in detail why inflation (credit expansion) is unlikely: The fractional banking system is still broken, and so is the consumer. Without either or both, every dollar the Federal Reserve attempts to print just replaces a dollar destroyed by bad debt.
I estimate another $10 trillion to $20 trillion in debt/derivatives is still bad. The government is resurrecting PPIP to try to make that debt look better.
But again, an economy is a physical system.
When the market realizes that the Fed can't create inflation (a full monetization of the majority of debt; something that would make even Ben blink), it'll see that the S&P 500 is really trading at 20 times earnings that are not growing.
It'll realize that all we've done is actually increase the overall debt in the system with massive stimulus and spending.
It'll see the risk in stocks as extremely high.
We see more than 100% of GDP growth as completely dependent on government(s) spending.
The Federal Housing Administration has issued more than a trillion dollars in mortgages this year, picking up where Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac left off (they really haven’t stopped either). Delinquency rates are approaching 17%.
Real GDP may be positive for the quarter, but when the government is involved there are lots of shenanigans.
For example, we've heard it plans to deduct the cash rebate for cars from the sales price, thus lowering the GDP deflator and artificially raising the reported real GDP number.
Senseless.It’s all a game of perception. An economy is a physical system, and in the long run it will react as such.
Recent history has seen economic growth stimulated by government(s) artificially lowering interest rates to get the consumer to borrow, which leads to companies building inventory, which leads to hiring, which leads to economic expansion.
This time around, the consumer is so levered that will not happen. The Fed itself has worried about this in papers as the “zero bound interest rate problem.”
This is a balance sheet contraction, a credit bust. You even hear the government saying it'll take years to recover. It'll take years for the consumer to delever (unwillingly).
I think most stock buyers know this, but aren't buying stocks because they think the economy will recover and profits will too.
I think a lot of people are buying stocks to 1. catch up with other buyers, and 2. because they're worried about “inflation".
I've written in detail why inflation (credit expansion) is unlikely: The fractional banking system is still broken, and so is the consumer. Without either or both, every dollar the Federal Reserve attempts to print just replaces a dollar destroyed by bad debt.
I estimate another $10 trillion to $20 trillion in debt/derivatives is still bad. The government is resurrecting PPIP to try to make that debt look better.
But again, an economy is a physical system.
When the market realizes that the Fed can't create inflation (a full monetization of the majority of debt; something that would make even Ben blink), it'll see that the S&P 500 is really trading at 20 times earnings that are not growing.It'll realize that all we've done is actually increase the overall debt in the system with massive stimulus and spending.
It'll see the risk in stocks as extremely high.
No positions in stocks mentioned.
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Reply
2009-09-15 14:35:57
Build Me A Nuclear Plant (Better Yet, A Few 100)
Mr. P,
Great article. CONfidence game indeed.
I wish the berries would build us several hundred more nuclear plants and transmission lines. At least invest in something needed.
Great article. CONfidence game indeed.
I wish the berries would build us several hundred more nuclear plants and transmission lines. At least invest in something needed.
2009-09-15 14:46:32
Build Me A Nuclear Plant (Better Yet, A Few 100)
FYI: They are about $2.6B each. One could easily spend $1T on plants and transmission lines if one wanted to generate as much electricity (% wise of total) as France. I have a gut feeling we are going to spend this money anyway in the next 10 years. Why not spend it now, instead of that other "stimulus" we had? Of course the coal industry would have a cow.
2009-09-15 15:12:22
Thanks For Being Gutsy, And Calling A Spade A Spade
Regarding,"puffing a lot of hot air"
I have to think we are at "peak baloney" right now. When we only get a "muddle through" economy that lasts for years, I think that not only will the debt, but also the baloney will necessarily deflate.
I still am concerned about a future currency revaluation, after this point of recognition occurs. It might not be for the full amount of the debt. David Rosenberg said that in the 1930s there was a 40% devaluation of the dollar, along with the -2% CPI deflation, even at the end of the deflationary period, even with seven years of New Deal stimulus.
I much appreciate, and look forward to your thoughts, as we continue down this historic path (unfortunately! but all we can do is make the best of it!).
I have to think we are at "peak baloney" right now. When we only get a "muddle through" economy that lasts for years, I think that not only will the debt, but also the baloney will necessarily deflate.
I still am concerned about a future currency revaluation, after this point of recognition occurs. It might not be for the full amount of the debt. David Rosenberg said that in the 1930s there was a 40% devaluation of the dollar, along with the -2% CPI deflation, even at the end of the deflationary period, even with seven years of New Deal stimulus.
I much appreciate, and look forward to your thoughts, as we continue down this historic path (unfortunately! but all we can do is make the best of it!).
2009-09-15 15:38:04
Speaking as a small trader, yes P/E ratio's are historically high. But even at 20 to 1, that 5% looks good compared to the other investment choices currently available.
2009-09-15 17:17:26
Deflation versus dollar debasement
Mr. Practical,
You and other professors in the deflation camp have readily explained why we shouldn't have to worry about inflation for a while from the standpoint of the economy being flooded with money that drives up prices, yet you do offer serious concerns about the dollar at a later point. However, it seems others (such as Fil Zucchi this morning on the buzz) aren't calling for inflation per se, but a dollar debasement which would be geopolitical rather than a fiscal/monetary cause of inflation (as Toddo offers, his 25 percent chance that "foreign holders of dollar denominated assets cry Uncle Sam"). The way the dollar has been steadily declining, I'm wonderinig if instead of "deflation before inflation", we are starting to see "inflation before deflation", with the potential for a further (or rapid/disorderly as Prof Zucchi suggests) decline in the dollar due to the perecptions/fears that exist about the debt levels of the US and the monetization end game of the FED. I know you moved back to the US for currency reasons. Is there a point where a substantial enough decline in the dollar from current levels would cause you to be concerned or question how you currently think this is going to play out? I know we're not at the 2008 lows in the dollar yet, but we're getting there and are just about at 52 week lows. From a technical stanpoint if the 2008 lows were broken it would seem pretty ominious to me. Would welcome your thoughts on the dollar's recent near term decline and your perception of the chances for a rapid/disorderly decline in the dollar caused by geopolitical forces before we enter another round of deflation.
You and other professors in the deflation camp have readily explained why we shouldn't have to worry about inflation for a while from the standpoint of the economy being flooded with money that drives up prices, yet you do offer serious concerns about the dollar at a later point. However, it seems others (such as Fil Zucchi this morning on the buzz) aren't calling for inflation per se, but a dollar debasement which would be geopolitical rather than a fiscal/monetary cause of inflation (as Toddo offers, his 25 percent chance that "foreign holders of dollar denominated assets cry Uncle Sam"). The way the dollar has been steadily declining, I'm wonderinig if instead of "deflation before inflation", we are starting to see "inflation before deflation", with the potential for a further (or rapid/disorderly as Prof Zucchi suggests) decline in the dollar due to the perecptions/fears that exist about the debt levels of the US and the monetization end game of the FED. I know you moved back to the US for currency reasons. Is there a point where a substantial enough decline in the dollar from current levels would cause you to be concerned or question how you currently think this is going to play out? I know we're not at the 2008 lows in the dollar yet, but we're getting there and are just about at 52 week lows. From a technical stanpoint if the 2008 lows were broken it would seem pretty ominious to me. Would welcome your thoughts on the dollar's recent near term decline and your perception of the chances for a rapid/disorderly decline in the dollar caused by geopolitical forces before we enter another round of deflation.
2009-09-16 08:48:45
A QUESTION FOR MR. P
Mr. Practical,
I am, in general, in complete agreement with your macro-analysis. But if the velocity of money is decelerating faster than the growth in M2 (causing a deflationary cycle and a concomminant strengthening of the U.S. dollar), why would this not cause our equity market to strengthen given that it is made up of dollar denominated asset? Please help me thing this out if you would.
I am, in general, in complete agreement with your macro-analysis. But if the velocity of money is decelerating faster than the growth in M2 (causing a deflationary cycle and a concomminant strengthening of the U.S. dollar), why would this not cause our equity market to strengthen given that it is made up of dollar denominated asset? Please help me thing this out if you would.
2009-09-16 09:02:15
A QUESTION FOR MR. P
Thomas, if I understand it correctly it goes like this:
Stock A is worth 100 units.
A dollar is worth 50 units.
Stock price is $2
Then the dollar doubles in strength to be worth 100 units
Stock A is still worth 100 units
Stock price is now $1
So the value of the company does not change but the stronger dollar now means that you would accept fewer dollars in return for the company than you would in the past. Opposite is true with inflation.
Stock A is worth 100 units.
A dollar is worth 50 units.
Stock price is $2
Then the dollar doubles in strength to be worth 100 units
Stock A is still worth 100 units
Stock price is now $1
So the value of the company does not change but the stronger dollar now means that you would accept fewer dollars in return for the company than you would in the past. Opposite is true with inflation.
2009-09-16 09:03:28
Deflation versus dollar debasement
part of the human experience is being wrong; it's how you handle it that makes the difference. do we learn from the experience and behave differently next time? perhaps the very meaning of life is how we handle suffering. "suffering builds endurance and endurance builds character. anyway, of course i can be wrong because there are so many variables that can affect the outcomes. but the important point i have learned is to play the odds. while china has $2 trillion in dollar reserves, it is their central bank that controls them. if private capital controlled it, this game would have ended long ago. but the central bank is full of bureaucrats that have played the game so long they are stuck. but even if they did decide to sell out en masse, i believe there are probaly $10 to $30 trillion more dollars to be destroyed through bad debt and derivatives. thus my position. but fil may be talking about a global bureaurcratic decision to revalue the dollar against all currencies in a precipitous move to create a world currency. sure that could happen, and it would be very bad if it did as socialism would be sealed, but i think that is an outlier event.
2009-09-16 09:12:19
A QUESTION FOR MR. P
DV, I agree with that but if the $ strengthens against other currencies, would not foreign buyers pay me more for my equity. Im sorry but I am very weak on currencies!
2009-09-16 11:25:20
urbi et orbi
Sir: when you speak of the deleveraging consumer no longer being the engine of growth, I readily recognize the picture you portray. I am living in America, after all.
But, when I think of newly-developing economies around the globe, I am not seeing that same dynamic, in the medium term. It may be that newbie consumers will carry the weight of consumption growth; which would have enormous (sector and country) implications for the investor if true.
But, when I think of newly-developing economies around the globe, I am not seeing that same dynamic, in the medium term. It may be that newbie consumers will carry the weight of consumption growth; which would have enormous (sector and country) implications for the investor if true.
2009-09-16 11:42:47
Time will tell
The Fed is backed into a corner. They will not allow the bad debt to be destroyed quickly. They are unwilling to face the short term consequences. Like the Chinese they desire above all else stability and preservation of the system. New money will be created as debt is slowly written off and lower growth and productivity will be the result. At some point the market will care.
2009-09-16 12:37:35
Destruction of the Dollar vs "Inflation"
I think the entire world knows the govt is intent on destroying the dollar - the deteriorating exchange rate reflects that observation. Tim is a weak proponent for our currency, as well as paying taxes to reduce the deficit. The Fed is out of control, so don't expect help there.
The dollar is worth less and becoming worthless.
Private debt is being destroyed while public debt spending is rampant. Govt debt is being used to buy things we don't want and can't afford... and to fund a lot of waste, fraud, and abuse.
Scarce resources are being squandered. Capitalism is now a dirty word and profit a crime. Even the Communist countries are worried about our engine of production being hobbled. The USA is today ranked 6th on the list of economic freedom. Didn't we use to be first??
Rising prices of imported goods reflect loss of confidence in our economy and our currency - even without a domestic bidding war prices will increase on things people want and need.
In short, we are in a lot more trouble than you listed. Mr. P.
The dollar is worth less and becoming worthless.
Private debt is being destroyed while public debt spending is rampant. Govt debt is being used to buy things we don't want and can't afford... and to fund a lot of waste, fraud, and abuse.
Scarce resources are being squandered. Capitalism is now a dirty word and profit a crime. Even the Communist countries are worried about our engine of production being hobbled. The USA is today ranked 6th on the list of economic freedom. Didn't we use to be first??
Rising prices of imported goods reflect loss of confidence in our economy and our currency - even without a domestic bidding war prices will increase on things people want and need.
In short, we are in a lot more trouble than you listed. Mr. P.
2009-09-16 12:42:19
Deflation versus dollar debasement
Mr. P.
Regarding, " a global bureaurcratic decision to revalue the dollar against all currencies"
Not necessarily a global decision. If you are correct and we have a long serious bout of deflation, then out of desperation our own berries may wish to revalue the dollar. You lower the debt through destruction, and then if needed further this with the dollar. Roosevelt did it with the dollar/gold ratio. Lets hope things don't get this bad. But we started this mess with a debt/GDP 1.7X greater than the Great Depression.
"It's the debt stupid" -Martin Armstrong (great macroeconomic analysis. timing not yet convinced about )
All my own opinion
Regarding, " a global bureaurcratic decision to revalue the dollar against all currencies"
Not necessarily a global decision. If you are correct and we have a long serious bout of deflation, then out of desperation our own berries may wish to revalue the dollar. You lower the debt through destruction, and then if needed further this with the dollar. Roosevelt did it with the dollar/gold ratio. Lets hope things don't get this bad. But we started this mess with a debt/GDP 1.7X greater than the Great Depression.
"It's the debt stupid" -Martin Armstrong (great macroeconomic analysis. timing not yet convinced about )
All my own opinion
2009-09-16 13:12:40
Deflation is a prison to those indebted. Our nation and the individuals that make it up are levered up. I don't believe it to be politically acceptable for full scale deflation to occur here, though over the long term, it would be the best thing for this nation. All the jobs we've inflated away would come flowing back as it became cheaper to operate here at home. Abolishing the Fed would go a long way in restoring our country's greatness.
2009-09-16 14:54:53
Deflation versus dollar debasement
this is astute and this is why i agree it is not in the cards right now. it would take a massive dislocation to get general populations to accept such a course.
2009-09-16 15:00:14
Destruction of the Dollar vs "Inflation"
dollare sentiment is 93% bearish right now. ultimately you are right but i do believe in markets and at major inflection points they incur the most pain possible. everyone wants inflation (credit expansion) to devalue dollar. everyone thinks it will happen. getting a government to truly destroy a currency i think is harder than the obvious. to truly destroy it will take more than the fed. it will take congress to continue to pass stimulus and at some point i think they will come to their senses. destroying a currency is really no way out for it has its own troubles, which are worse than letting the market deflate.
2009-09-16 15:02:09
A QUESTION FOR MR. P
to them they are paying the same as they convert thier currency to dollars to buy the stock.
2009-09-16 15:10:07
A QUESTION FOR MR. P
as someone else described a strenghtening dollar would have the effect of making the price of a stock go down in dollar price, all things being equal. by the way m1is actually dropping right now month to month as dollars are getting destroyed now faster than created.
2009-09-16 15:12:09
Thanks For Being Gutsy, And Calling A Spade A Spade
yes bretton woods, revaluing the dollar to gold. something we put in place to avoid the same thing: creating too much debt. lesson forgotten.
2009-09-16 15:32:38
Destruction of the Dollar vs "Inflation"
Hoping that Marxists will come to their senses is an oxymoron. Hoping that the rest in Congress come to their senses has not been fruitful in a long time... and the trend is in the wrong direction.
Hoping the voters come to their senses is optimistic, but could happen... but a year from Nov at the earliest. The Marxists are hoping a lot of irreversible commitments will be instituted before the next election.
A free market may have recovered from last year's crisis by now. The private credit unwind will take a few more years. It takes generations for a free market to recover from Marxism.
Hoping the voters come to their senses is optimistic, but could happen... but a year from Nov at the earliest. The Marxists are hoping a lot of irreversible commitments will be instituted before the next election.
A free market may have recovered from last year's crisis by now. The private credit unwind will take a few more years. It takes generations for a free market to recover from Marxism.
2009-09-16 16:01:16
Deflation versus dollar debasement
Mr. P,
We could get a big sell-off if the market takes a significant bad turn.
I saw on ABC news last night, that most Baby Boomers did not get out of equities as a result of the recent crash. They interviewed a few who are now relieved to have made up some of their losses. But the thought "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me came to mind" Meaning, that if there is a significant drop, vast numbers of Boomers may shift to bonds.
They are now alert, and would not tolerate big losses again.
We could get a big sell-off if the market takes a significant bad turn.
I saw on ABC news last night, that most Baby Boomers did not get out of equities as a result of the recent crash. They interviewed a few who are now relieved to have made up some of their losses. But the thought "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me came to mind" Meaning, that if there is a significant drop, vast numbers of Boomers may shift to bonds.
They are now alert, and would not tolerate big losses again.
2009-09-17 08:14:35
keep up the negative articles
People who write articles like this must be under the age of 10. I read the same articles when the market recovered in 2003, in 1988, 1982, and 1975. "There's no reason for this market to rise". And it keeps rising. I guess such people will finally stop publishing such articles when the markets top out, at which point they will tell you to plunge into the market full-force. No wonder the average investor does badly: he reads too many articles from "the experts".
Keep publishing such articles, Minyanville, I need them to keep making money, as I've done for 40 years now.
Keep publishing such articles, Minyanville, I need them to keep making money, as I've done for 40 years now.
2009-09-17 12:55:14
keep up the negative articles
Bruce,
You are entitled to your very bullish sentiment. You do realize, you may be predicting a local market top with your (and most other investors) sentiment.
We shall see.
You are entitled to your very bullish sentiment. You do realize, you may be predicting a local market top with your (and most other investors) sentiment.
We shall see.
2009-09-17 20:23:14
Mr P
You are always appreciated and a regular read.When you were in Yenville your advice was for Americans like myself to pay down debt.In no way this is Hubris that I share the percentage with you but I did heed yours and Toddo's--well the Minyanville mantra of less debt.Real estate as of this date only represents about 14% of my net worth.My total debt load as of this post is only 8% of my net worth.I will continue to pay down till the 8 is a numero 0.Sincerely,JT
2009-09-19 12:19:28
I began to warn people of the impending crash back in *February 2007*
Currently the VIX index is giving some bullish warnings on the daily chart.
crinia [at] gmail.com
Currently the VIX index is giving some bullish warnings on the daily chart.
crinia [at] gmail.com
2009-09-20 16:40:40
Bruce remember, this site like all of them, plays both sides of the coin, so they can point to always being right. Todd is the best at this game.
2009-09-22 23:52:06
Destruction of the Dollar vs "Inflation"
The slide in the dollar continues... maybe you repatriated too soon?
In Jan 1865 the Confederate dollar was worth 17 cents... was that 83% bearish? Faith in that govt's ability to ever pay its debt was the reason, not technical factors, that caused further decline.
If 7% of the world now thinks we can ever repay our national debt, I would call that too high.
In Jan 1865 the Confederate dollar was worth 17 cents... was that 83% bearish? Faith in that govt's ability to ever pay its debt was the reason, not technical factors, that caused further decline.
If 7% of the world now thinks we can ever repay our national debt, I would call that too high.
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