So according to what few reports I've seen, mail and phone calls into Congress have run somewhere in the neighborhood of 85% against the bailout. The bailout seems likely to pass - and now of course it's loaded up with the very pork that all the Congresspiggies claim to scorn.

How, I wonder, will Congress' flagrant disregard of the will of the people impact the darkening mood? Ostensibly we elect these people to represent our interests. One could certainly argue that the people's negative reaction to the bailout is short-sighted, emotional, ignorant, and so forth, but if the reports are true then it is incontrovertibly the will of the people that this bailout not happen.

How will people react to their elected representatives giving them the finger in this way?

I was e-mailing back and forth with an old friend last night and while discussing the current "situation" I mentioned that the "NO" vote Monday by the house was the result of a slave wage revolt.

My friend's e-mails stopped for 10 minutes. When she finally responded, it was with a big smiley face.

So as the poster above talks about, it will be interesting to see how the slave wage majority responds to the slap in the face.

That is a huge question isnt it. i read many blogs predominantly finance related and while the blogs can be interesting the response sections are getting down right nasty with open talk of revolution showing up more and more. Right now it's mostly towards democratic instituted change but with many perceived acts of treason by congress dem's elected to get rid of bush then taking impeachment off the table, the failure to stand up to bush stopping the war's, the domestic spying, the political conventions looking more and more like a blatant police state and now getting sold down the river of eternal debt slavery people are not happy at all when this mess really hits home it will not be a pretty thing to witness

Given the scale, "denial-migration-panic", we have to be in the 'migration' stage. Mapped to the social mood scale, we certainly are seeing some acrimony.. and can expect more, and more intense, negative energy going forward. Toddo, you may be right about the suit. (ohh, how about a suit in the military 'urban camo' pattern - is that stylin' or what)

I'd feel sorry for whoever gets inaugurated next year, but they asked for it.

The slap in the face will come when we are told by the government that we are officially in a recession and that the "bailout" could not stave off the recession.
To me the recession began in the summer of 2006. At that time there was plenty of fluff to go around to lessen the degree of recession. Fluff is credit, savings, investments, etc. Now we have used up the fluff and the recession will be geometrically more severe. If we had begun to address the recession as a recession in 2006 we possibly would already be on the road to recovery. Naturally.
two words of interest:
Lesson and Lessen
Bailout a flooded basement or bail out of a distressed vehichle.
When it is hard to tell the difference we are in trouble Or is it to be different is to be un-liked which may not even be a word. I disliked the lesson I learned when I bailed out without a parachute. Hold on to your (you"re) what? Good luck

We know who voted for the bail out but why don't we know who put the additional 100 billion in pork into the plan. We want names of who forced their pork into this plan. Democrat or Republican when we find out who you are you will be forced to choke on it. Vote them out.

Pelosi tried to pork up the plan with another stimulus. I'm a Democrat and want the people to be better represented but a across the board stimulus does nothing to solve our problems. A recession affects those who are not working the worst. Job creation is what makes an economy strong. Pelosi is a nit wit she should go.

Unemployment numbers would be twice as large if it were not for all the illegal Mexicans who lost their under the table jobs first and are not counted. I have posted a lot about this issue because I think its wrong to have illegal's floating about our country taking jobs from Americans. That doesn't mean that I dislike these folks as many our just trying to make a better life for themselves. But the fact of the matter is if we had not allowed millions in to our country to help with the boom and bust cycle of housing we would not have millions of unsold homes and now millions of empty rentals due to the migration of illegal's back to their home land.

I am sick of being held hostage by Wall Street! Every time they start whining the Feds rush in with our money to bail them out. Wall Street has packed trillions of dollars out the back door with golden parachute, excessive bonus's and wages. Trillions more have been stolen by falsely pricing LBO's which artificially raises stock prices. This will be another huge adjustment to our portfolios.

The sign says it all in the picture of this article by Todd. Unfortunately the folks that should jump are too greedy to part with their stolen goods and lack the sac to do what's right.

JPM

Since nobody really knows what to call the current situation with the markets, how about we start calling it 'the markets formerly known as free'? I think that conveys what is going on with the confusion and that we know everything is not normal.

In a word we created the illegals problem with nafta, that exported americas industry to Mexico creating the rust belt and the agribusiness part destroyed the Mexican farming economy driving farmers to the cities and then to the north
we have sown the garden of unintended consequences and now it is time to start reaping the harvest, and i do not think we will like the results

Consider that the Government taxing citizens to buy private and foreign debt is little different than the government seizing your property to pay for "services rendered" retroactively or to simply increase tax revenues (which is already happening).

IF it is acceptable for the President, the Congress, and the Judicial branch to condone taxation of citizens to pay the debts of the illegal, the irresponsible, the private and foreign banks and speculators; than there is no such thing as citizenship in the U.S., or individual rights or liberty.

This has been a creeping cancer in our democracy since the implementation of the income tax in 1913 (yes, there was no Federal income tax before that), but especially since F.D.R.'s new deal.

However, this bill signed by a Republican President passed by a Democrat controlled congress is a new chapter in the indentured servitude of responsible citizens, and a nail in the coffin of liberty while she scratches at the lid.

I've never seen so much anger and agreement between Democrat and Republican or liberal and conservative citizens. I believe we all feel in our gut that is morally and ethically wrong and sense the approach of two or three of the four horseman of the apocalypse.

As to the illegal aliens, they do the jobs no one else wants to do. Would you like to pick grapes or clean houses? They're not the reason our country is bankrupt and they can't afford the unaffordable housing anyway. It's the corrupt government, silly, who doesn't give a rap for anyone but themselves. And the reason Main St is mad is because we've been suffering since last year....recession/depression is already here. And no we only have the congress that voted no on this irrational bailout to represent us, hardly 85%. This should be the end of our empire, but they just won't let it die.

It is real interesting to see immigrants mentioned here. It is quite misleading to say "in a word" that Nafta created the rust belt. There were factories and maquiladoras making TV's and shirts in Mexico and Central America long before there was Nafta. The rust belt progressed from oxidizing to rusted because (and not only because) US factories put out inferior products (try 1980's cars) and couldn't compete in open markets (which did however benefit US consumers). The rusting accelerated when China got Favored Nation trading status. The last time I went to buy tire chains they were all made in China ! It boggled my mind to think that it could be cheaper to ship steel chains half way around the world than to make them in the US, and try as I did I couldn't find any US-made chains.

You can't really say immigrants took American jobs because nearly all immigrants took jobs Americans were not willing to do. Gardening, roofing, construction, fast-food, housekeeping, ranching, you name it, on top of the traditional long day in the fields under the sun. Millions of immigrants came in because of expanding demand for such services, especially when their stay was enabled by the "wink-wink" collusion of employers and politicians. US citizens coming out of high school and college in the last 15 years have predominantly wanted to become accountants, tech gurus, lawyers, bankers, bond brokers, and marketing execs, (with an escape hatch to real estate sales and mortgage brokering). The education system pushes them towards white-collar careers and only furthers their disinterest and disdain for vocational training, even if a good plumber or electrician or appliance repairperson can make a very comfortable and independent living.

Friends ranging from hotel managers to construction supervisors in a variety of States confirm that their best maids and hardest-working bricklayers, pavers, shovel operators, and nail pounders are immigrants, and that the Americans who show up from time to time are rarely even close when it comes to desire to work. That is the sad fact. Immigrants often live four to six or more in an apartment or house to save money (imagine that !) so even mass departures of them couldn't be responsible for "millions" of empty apartments.

Unless you're a Native American you are descended from immigrants, few of whom were white-collar workers when they arrived on these shores, so I'd say lay off those who work hard to get ahead ! Don't get me wrong - I'm all for enforcement of immigration law, penalties for hiring "undocumented" workers, etc. It just doesn't seem right to blame immigrants who often seem to embody more of the American Dream than our citizens do.

Let's try to keep the social acrimony down. It isn't the construction worker's fault that home builders, US citizens, low rates, and creative financing pushed the boom to implosion. Let's not blame those "illegal Mexicans who lost their under the table jobs first".

No offense, Gina, but NAFTA has been a net good thing. I have a sister who is currently unemployed and keeps sending me emails about how illegals cost us (and her in particular) jobs. I asked her (a former telecoms wireless data clerk) which illegal took her job, and then look out her window and tell me what kind of work the illegals were doing. It tends to be work no American has the willingness to do, not even teens. I have a teen and I tried to get him to mow lawns this summer so he would have spending money. Had he charged $20 a cut, he'd have undercut the lawn services which are all staffed with illegals here. He was unwilling to do it (I withheld money from him all summer, making it a very uncomfortable summer).
In addition, NAFTA has done much to keep prices down while improving the trade atmosphere. It's hard to be against free trade when its history has been one of consistently good results. But, of course, those results cannot go on forever. So, when they end, we immediately focus on that which we fear - anything that is not domestic. Of course free trade can't work! Despite 15 years of success, the one year where it seems broken it MUST be that which caused it.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/easescredit.asp

I'd point out that there is alot of blame to go around for the financial mess. It isn't a political issue. Or it is...but it lacks a single man or party upon whom to heap blame.

I would submit that the most telling comment came from the Representative (whose name escapes me at the moment) who stated that support for the bailout comes from politicians who are simply seeking to save their seats by appearing to "do something".

The simple fact is that we, as a people, are poorly educated in finance and economics and we've come to blame recessions on politicians rather than standard economic cycles. As a result, the payback is a political class that is unwilling to accept recession - a recession is a "failure" of the political class - so they (who are even more poorly educated in economics but very well versed in legal legerdemain) pull the most remarkable stunt of eliminating cycles and producing an endless summer of growth.

Of course, when the endless summer begins to produce burns, they are quick to point fingers anywhere but at themselves. Thank you, Barney Frank!
Fact is, in this mess, you cannot be a Democrat or a Republican. Nor can you point fingers at either. Both are to blame.

Within my own family, I've noticed that I stand firmly in the middle. One sibling has festooned her children with Obama buttons and taught them to include the words "hate" and "Bush" liberally in their sentences, while most of the rest of my family have moved slightly more to the right and refuse to accept anything contrary to their standard view.

In times of crisis, we tend to seek extremes because they provide comfortable decisions with little effort of rational thought. Is it any surprise that two of the more moderate senators we've had (McCain and Biden), 2 men who are friends, are currently at opposite ends of the spectrum and have beholden themselves to the ideologues of their parties?

We have become 1979 Britain, but we are unlikely to see the benefits they reaped and are likely to face a winter of our discontent.

Is it any surprise to you that one of capitalism's largest beneficiaries - T Boone Pickens - is seeking to use the not so recent Eminent Domain Supreme Court rulings to force feed us wind power at the expense of farm land?

It isn't to me, and while I am a supporter of alternative energy, I'd like to see it implemented in a cost efficient manner, which is why I cheered high oil prices. Price is not benefit or a punishment, it is a signal. We haven't taught our kids this, however. And our politicians don't understand this.

I work in media, so setting prices is something I do regularly. When my inventory is tight, I raise rates. Every time I do that, my salespeople complain. I have to explain to them every time that tight inventory is a GOOD THING. Sure, high prices are tougher to push through, but it shows our inventory is desirable and wanted.
The clients who have to pay higher prices complain, too. But I have no choice.

Rather than face this truth, we'd prefer to have politicians "make things right". Which really means screw them up further, but at least EVERYONE will suffer and not just me. When Florida went through a bout of hurricanes, people complained about the price gouging that occurred when outside contractors arrived, charged exorbitant prices, and then did subpar work (sometimes). The fact Florida recovered quickly was unimportant...everyone focused on the few inequities and laws were passed to "fix" the problem. Thus, when a single hurricane came through a year later, it took almost a year and half to fix things at my in-laws location because of the heavy regulations. But at least it was done "fairly".

I'm not saying regulations are always and everywhere bad things. But generally, they are designed poorly and enforced inadequately. Either way, what's the point, except that regulations make politicians richer and capable of being reelected (or voted out).

Given that we blame or credit politicians with economic results (for some strange reason), is it any surprise they feel the need to be grains of sand in the oil?

Wow...I think we posted simultaneously. HEAR, HEAR!

I am always stunned by the blame heaped on things, like NAFTA, that had little or nothing to do with anything but improving the economy.

People forget a few facts, such as:
1. Technically, we're all illegal immigrants
2. The fastest periods of US growth are almost always coincidental with higher immigration (correlation is not causation, but in this case there is cause/effect - look at the Eastern Europeans who flocked to Ireland as it boomed)
3. Comparative advantage never gets repealed
4. Malthus is still wrong, Julian Simon and Schumpeter are still right
5. Optimism is, always and everywhere, a force multiplier.

The fact you pay $17 for a Martini is proof enough that we are living in an upside down world. Charging for a drink that equates to a fifth of Vodka bought at the store shows the level of hubris that will be wrung out with this cleansing.

Don't get me wrong, legal immigrants are a great thing.

I worked retail and landscaping. Some of my best workers were immigrants; good people, hard working, appreciative of the work. The problem for me is if they are here illegally.

We have created a false economy of scale by allowing them to work in the U.S. unfettered. Combine that dynamic with Welfare, WIC, CHIP, and other handouts and the incentive to work for lower class citizens or those just starting out is removed, and wages are lowered to levels where hiring illegals becomes a near necessity.

The social programs create a tax burden which requires the other classes to pay for them. Politicians get votes for handing out money and looking the other way. Churches - by the way - get membership and $$$ for doing the same (i.e. - Catholic church, LDS, etc.). I'm not criticizing anyone, this is just demographics and reality.

On my crews I had guys from West Virginia, Pennsylvania and the rural regions of Maryland and Virginia drive down to D.C. to work every week. Good people, worked their butts off just like the legal and illegal immigrants.

Then I had the entitlement crowd; rednecks, ex-suburbia, and minorities who had been raised on Mom and Dad's dime or the welfare teat. They would intentionally not get married so their "old lady" could collect more welfare. The more ba*tard babies the more money they got. In the Winter instead of doing snow removal they would go on un-employment because they could get nearly as much money and "not freeze their a*s off" as they put it as they could working.

So...I (an upper-middle class suburbian) would be out shoveling sidewalks with blue collar guys that hunted squirrels in the hills on the weekend, illegal immigrants who came from Central America and had never seen snow...being yelled at by apparatchiks and arrogant upper crust types for not kissing their posteriors while the entitlement class was at home eating gub'ment cheese. Insanity! And this was 20 years ago! It's only gotten worse.

We are like a dysfunctional family. We have not set boundaries nor stuck to rules or principles or ethics or God in our relations and dealings. When the drug addict sibling comes home we give them a loan and access to the liquor cabinet. When their decent significant other moves in with them, we allow them to enable the addict sibling. We spend more than we make, buy things we don't need, and don't go to church or donate to the widowed women and childern's fund. Instead, we have 5% taken out of our paychecks to go to some organization that sends out 50% on getting more donations, 30% on salaries, 10% on junkets to warm climes for "meetings" and 10% on actually helping anyone.

We support green initiatives and taxpayer funded entitlements because they make us feel good about ourselves, not because they are actually making a difference.

Our politicians are addicted to being re-elected, so they take what they can get because if they bring home pork they get re-elected; if they don't and take enough lobbying money and vote as asked, they'll have a private sector job when they get booted becasue they have connections and know the game.

It's not about a political party or a social class or group or religion, it is about individuals making un-ethical choices that allows the cancer to grow into a tumor one cell at a time.

However, those who seek power and money seek to divide us by party, class, group, religion because we are a clan/tribe/gang species that seeks survival and success by association.

The average person, no matter the race or gender or orientation, who was raised to believe in individual responsibility and non-confiscation of their rights and self-earned resources by governmental, judicial, or unethical fiat is left wondering what in the HELL happened to common sense and right and wrong.

Don't know what else to say at this point....

When folks start getting thrown from balconies to the roar of the crowd below, the first to be thrown, historically, are Jews. Unpleasant situation developing, indeed.

Definitely the major trend is conduscent to the ascendence of a Tyrant. (I am using "tyrant" in the sense that Machiavelli and Aristotle used the term.) The "tyrant" phase follows the collapse of the "democratic" phase as the people become "licentious", that is, refuse to see that they no longer are willing to judge right from wrong. "Democratical Man" is replaced by "Tyrannical Man", a shift on the most basic level of human nature; as has been said, "In a Democracy one bleats with the sheep and in a Tyranny one howls with the wolves."

"Licentiousness" is pretty much the rule now. Democracy is dying quickly. Tyranny follows.

Indeed, do not wear a nice suit in public especially after 5 PM. Keep a low profile. No $17 martinis. To me, not taking a very low profile in Manhattan these days, not dressing a bit down from the median in the crowd, would feel physically reckless. Fit in with the 3 AM subway crowd. Too easy to get badly injured.

Julian Simon dittos to you.

Thanks for your input and yes, think positive.

Regards,
Eric

We are NOT technically all illegal immigrants. We are a soveriegn nation with laws governing immigration. Nations with no immigration laws cannot govern themselves because by allowing too many immigrants into the nation too quickly, they lose the ability to control their resources and the ability to assimilate new arrivals.

If new arrivals do not assimilate, then they fiind themselves increasingly at odds with the host country and it's way of life. Culture and language are powerful untiers and powerful dividers; witness the Muslims rioting in France or the never-ending violence that has been the Balkans for 500 or so yrs.

Economically speaking, there are plenty of American carpenters that can build houses, but they are more expensive than the illegal labor. However, that extra cost would have benfitted America as it would have limited the number of homes built and may have precluded the housing bubble; fewer homes built over the last 7 yrs or so would mean less inventory rotting on their lots and fewer toxic mortgages rotting on so many balance sheets.

Also, we have plenty of poor people already living here. Not all are lazy, and many would have worked if the wages were more appropriate to our way of life and not simply appropriate for immigrant workers from an economically depressed nation like Mexico. Seems to me that if more wage money went to the lower rungs of the social ladder, that would have created more demand for goods and services from these citizens WITHOUT the need to go head over heels into debt.

I think that many from Main Street and others not close to the epi-center have personal anecdotes of the greed and stupidity that drove this mess. When inflation hits, or when taxes go up, or when pension funds collapse, it is hard to forget those little hard nuggets of truth.

My particular anecdote is from a puchase of a small rental property in 2006, when I applied for a loan from CitiBank. When I called and told the desk loan officers what I wanted, I was encouraged to apply for the loan as a prospective homeowner, even though I made it clear that it was to be a rental property. I was sent an affidavit to sign that would verify my residential intentions. Across the bottom of the affidavit was a clear statement that it was a felony to fib. But from the desk offficer's perspective, that little fib evidently occurred quite often, and was encouraged. I suspect there must have been a better commission on the residential loans. In return for signing (which I did not) I would be offered a 2% down 'liar loan.' Instead, with a clear conscience, I purchased a commercial loan at 10% down, mortgage insurance for the 2nd 10% down, and a higher rate.

But I doubt that it was the loan officer that was pushing the perjuries alone -- that decision had to be made at the top by someone that knew how to game the system. And, there were obviously no internal management controls to catch the fraud - even today. CitiBank and others should do some forensics on this and not just say "everyone had a hand in this." The hand was clearly at the top.

I would argue that technically, we are illegals. We didn't ask the Native Americans if we could come and take their lands. While some of us (like myself) have relatives who arrived after the creation of the USA, and followed the rules and regulations set down since that creation, it stands to reason that those very laws were set down by descendants of people who took lands which they perceived had no owners, but technically "did".

I'm not a supporter of the extremists who claim Columbus and other explorers were "mass murderers" or others of that ilk. But it doesn't take much to understand the concept of what makes an immigrant, illegal or otherwise. If we limit immigrants to X number a year, then every immigrant X+1 becomes, technically, illegal. Yet we've had alot of that going on for years and years, and many US citizens are now descendants of THOSE people.

Setting limits and requirements on immigration doesn't give us the most desirable, it simply limits exposure by current citizens to those who are new. It's really no different than the behavior of the Know Nothings of the 1850's - a sadly misguided group.

As for whether we are as a nation, generally, lazy, I agree with you. There are many who would like to work if the jobs were not taken by others or if the wages were "right". But to be honest, as someone who has utilized illegal immigrants to do work, how can I make that distinction of what is "right"?

When I wanted a fence painted, I got an exorbitant estimate from 3 professional firms, none less than $3,000. Yet, when I went to Home Depot, bought the stain, and then picked up 2 fellows down by the train station, I was able to complete the job in 2 weekends for less than $1,000. Who is really the problem - the men willing to work or the professionals pricing themselves out of the market? I have several stories similar to this, but basically they are all the same.

We claim we want to be paid "fairly" or get the "right" wage. Frankly, even in my industry, I see people with fewer skills, less intelligence, and even less capability making 2 and 3 times my salary. Yet, when I was unemployed and seeking work, I was cheap at the price. My problem? Not immigration. Age and experience.
Yet would I call for laws to protect me because I'm more intelligent or more experienced than my counterparts who got jobs that, realisitically, should have been mine? No, that's ridiculous. Everyone has the right to go for a job, and every employer has the right to choose the person they want based on their needs at the time, or how they perceive the candidates. I can tell you that in one case, I was turned down for a job for a younger candidate with much less experience. He left after 2 months, was replaced by another who left after 1 month. I got a call back after I'd found a job already. Sometimes our biases get the better of us, don't they?
Had the job the men did on my fence been horrific, I'd have beaten myself up for having to call back the pros to fix it. The cost would have been higher than I'd been prepared to pay. So utilizing human resources is not that different than using tools - you have to be smart about how you make your choices. I'd never use a wrench if I need a screwdriver and I would never hire an illegal if I need a Harvard grad. Similarly, if I have to choose between a teen who will cut my lawn for the "right" price of $50 and an illegal who offers to do it for $20, I think the market is setting itself.

I've told this story before about "right" wages:
I recently had a college grad enter my office and I offered him a job. His wage, when I told it to him, was only 1/2 what he expected. He couldn't afford to "get an apartment in Manhattan by myself". I studied him for a second and said "I guess you need to go to Wall Street. Nobody offers a salary as good as what I offered you in this industry. Furthermore, I spent my first 8 years in New York sharing an apartment with 3, 2 or 1 other person. Why do I have to cater to your need to live alone?"

.. The Indians allowed us to come in and we set up a gov't with immigration laws to limit immigration to a level we could live with...
.. If you can't afford to hire American workers, then maybe you are underpaid yourself!

.. I don't hate illegals, but they should stay home and fix their own countries, not come here and ruin ours by taking our jobs, lowering our wages by working 80 hours for 40 hours pay at minimum wage, etc. ...

.. Saying illegals only take jobs Americans won't is parroting Bush Jr. BS... Plenty of Americans want to be bricklayers, carpenters, roofers, concrete workers, etc. at a livable wage...

The impression that I got was that considerably more than 85% of the public expressing their opinion was against the bailout. In some cases, 99 out of 100, in other cases even more against.

Congress clearly went against public opinion, which is tremendously curious. It's hard to imagine that the majority of the Congress of the United States has been bought off, but they surely have.

One hopes the voters don't forget what representative democracy is about on the first Tuesday in November.

The Native Americans did not ALLOW us to enter. They simply couldn't stop us and worked out means of dealing with Europeans until those means ultimately didn't work anymore. They were overwhelmed. This isn't pointing a finger of blame, it's simply a truth.

As for whether I'm underpaid or not - I'd say I'm not necessarily, though I do believe that many others in similar positions to mine are overpaid. Would I like more? Of course...who wouldn't?

I agree, and have said previously, that there are Americans who would willingly do some of these jobs, but you have to be honest and admit that the numbers we are talking about are small and not really that meaningful. I hired those men because, realistically, it was cost effective. The last time I looked, we live in a country that prizes Free Enterprise. Why do we seek to limit Free Enterprise to ONLY those who we deem worthy of having a right to Free Enterprise? I engaged local professionals and they proved extraordinarily expensive and priced themselves out of the market, in my opinion. It is my right to make that decision.

With regard to my income, however, I'd have to say that is my business and nobody else's. I live well. I've pointed out that many people from my high school class, if they saw my income and how I live, would feel I'm "Rich". Meanwhile, many of my neighbors, if they saw how much I made, would be stunned to try and figure out how I live as well as I do on an income that is probably well below theirs (many of my neighbors are on Wall Street). Fact is, I'm not a cheapskate, but I've learned to live on reduced incomes throughout my life due to my parents' erratic income (stepfather was a commission only real estate salesperson in the 70's), and my own bouts of unemployment.

And saying I'm parroting a politician's viewpoint presupposes my political views. I have consistently remained as apolitical as possible in my posts because I don't believe Bush is as evil as people make him out to be, but I don't believe the Democrats have all the answers, either. Both sides make valuable arguments and have equally deficient flaws. I have come to my views through the experience of a middle-class American who takes a realistic and holistic view of the world.

I don't claim to be 100% correct...that would be foolish. Life is all about statistics and probability, though, and I'd have to say I try to fashion a viewpoint that is as broadly acceptable as possible, unless the broad consensus is clearly wrong, which it is sometimes.

I say vote independent for EVERY position on the ballot. Write in Ron Paul or Donald Duck, but do NOT vote for the establishment. It's time to throw the bums out. ALL of them.

Richard,

Most conquering peoples would have wiped out the Natives period.

Indian reservations are like archeological preserves, cruel and unusual punishment, as though we forced settlers in Virginia to maintain a 1687 way of life. Then the Japanese come and take pictures of them...crazy.

Agriculture, politicians, and religions like immigrants because they equal = cheap labor, votes, and membership and $$$. It's a sell out for short term gain, period.

We pay the price in healthcare, education, law enforcement, and an artificially eleveated standard of living. This situation is the come-uppance of that largess, and the excesses of materialism and the post-WWII baby-boomers expectations that we all would have a better life than our Parents.

I'd settle for the same life.

Asian markets are falling. My prediction is that come opeing of NYSE it will fall. All our tax dollars and liberty prostituted away for a "quick fix" that will only extend and make more painful the correction to reality.

If it were Spring I'd start my Victory Garden but...

EXACTLY!

I tried to tell my Republican representatives that they were losing my vote for them and McCain but only 1/5 listened.

OOOOPS!