Who Killed the Hydrogen-Powered Car?
By James Anderson Jun 08, 2009 10:10 am
Unfeasibility, expense were enough to do it in.
The hydrogen fuel cell is an efficient generator of electricity, but it has one major problem: It needs hydrogen. So where does it get it? Therein lies the hydrogen myth. On Earth, there's no hydrogen to mine. You have to make it, and that requires wasting energy. You could conceivably mine hydrogen from the sun or Jupiter, but even Al Gore would probably agree that that would be tough to accomplish.
Last month, the Department of Energy (DOE) finally conceded that hydrogen won't be a part of the near-term solution to global warming, the peak oil crisis, or anything else you can think of. They're cutting back funding dramatically on hydrogen research. This is a triumph of physics over policy. In the long run, physics will always win, but we have way too many policy wonks in Washington without a clue about how the physical world works.
Even if hydrogen could be produced cheaply, it has another problem that makes it impractical as a fuel for transportation. Even when highly compressed, the energy density per liter or gallon is very low compared to gasoline or diesel fuel. Think about the size of the fuel tanks on the trucks that deliver gasoline to a station compared to the size of the tank on the truck. The ratio is about 90 to 1. That’s an efficient delivery system. If a hydrogen delivery truck had to burn hydrogen, the size of the fuel tank for the engine would be about one-quarter of the size of the delivery tank!
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2009-06-08 09:52:24
Energy
The process of burning coal/elctric power generation/transmission/electric car is more efficient than burning gasoline in an internal combustion engine. That coupled with charging batteries during off-peak hours makes electric cars more appealing than they might seem; at least in warm places, electric heat in a car will mess things up.
2009-06-08 10:35:52
Hydrogen power
Check out Hy-Drive Technologies (HGS.V on Toronto Venture Exchange)...They aim to use already in-place Truck battery to hydrolyse water and inject small complement of Hydrogen in diesel engine combustion process to improve engine efficiency. A far cry from Hydrogen power but a pratical way to marginally reduce consumption of diesel.
2009-06-08 11:04:57
Energy
Clearly, we in this counrty have no motivation to address the energy issue.
With Power Plants burning fuel with the highest sulfur content, (.8%), and virtually NO emission controls, I have a hard time seeing a solution coming from plug in electric vehicles.
This does not take into consideration the lack of electrical production capacity if the plug in electric car numbers were to substantialy increase.
We continue to go up and down the same paths of discounting solutions with little or no knowledge.
EPA certified CNG vehicles have been produced by many auto manufactures, (Chrysler, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota) as well as heavy Diesel engine manufactures, (Cummins, DDC, John Deere) and has been in use for decades by private industry, (UPS, FED EX, Waste Management) without help or a plan from the Feds to develope an infrastracture or for stabilizing N G pricing in order to increase its use.
There are thousands of N G wells capped in the U. S. because of the instability of N G use, hence it's pricing.
CNG also has a very low BTU value compared to gasoline / diesel. That is why the use of CNG, and other low BTU fuels are limited to intra-city, pick up & delivery use around a hub.
In addition CNG was a great fuel for those who had to operate in a non-atainment area.
CNG was, is, our best chance of diversiying our fuel use in this country and we let it fail due to a lack of leadership and folks who only "know" what will not work.
fred
With Power Plants burning fuel with the highest sulfur content, (.8%), and virtually NO emission controls, I have a hard time seeing a solution coming from plug in electric vehicles.
This does not take into consideration the lack of electrical production capacity if the plug in electric car numbers were to substantialy increase.
We continue to go up and down the same paths of discounting solutions with little or no knowledge.
EPA certified CNG vehicles have been produced by many auto manufactures, (Chrysler, Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota) as well as heavy Diesel engine manufactures, (Cummins, DDC, John Deere) and has been in use for decades by private industry, (UPS, FED EX, Waste Management) without help or a plan from the Feds to develope an infrastracture or for stabilizing N G pricing in order to increase its use.
There are thousands of N G wells capped in the U. S. because of the instability of N G use, hence it's pricing.
CNG also has a very low BTU value compared to gasoline / diesel. That is why the use of CNG, and other low BTU fuels are limited to intra-city, pick up & delivery use around a hub.
In addition CNG was a great fuel for those who had to operate in a non-atainment area.
CNG was, is, our best chance of diversiying our fuel use in this country and we let it fail due to a lack of leadership and folks who only "know" what will not work.
fred
2009-06-08 11:10:56
Hydrogen power
I went to a local GM dealer who sells a self contained Hydrogen generating system to convert vehicles to duel fuel.
As you say, it is used as a supliment it seems to work well as such.
fred
As you say, it is used as a supliment it seems to work well as such.
fred
2009-06-08 13:31:16
In a perfect world..
We wouldn't need to go anywhere in vehicles.
As such, the first choice in energy solutions should always be conservation. Saving resources is much better than trying to dig your way out of a consumption hole.
The way I have explained it (hyd vs electric) for many years is this: "You build one windmill to power an electric car to get you to work and back, you would have to build 3 if your car was hydrogen powered."
For those interested in electric vehicles, start with www.evworld.com and say "Hi" to Bill Moore for me.
Well, back to work on another electric tractor project. Thanks for the break.
As such, the first choice in energy solutions should always be conservation. Saving resources is much better than trying to dig your way out of a consumption hole.
The way I have explained it (hyd vs electric) for many years is this: "You build one windmill to power an electric car to get you to work and back, you would have to build 3 if your car was hydrogen powered."
For those interested in electric vehicles, start with www.evworld.com and say "Hi" to Bill Moore for me.
Well, back to work on another electric tractor project. Thanks for the break.
2009-06-08 14:30:49
Not even an Honorable Mention
Hydrogen made the Hindenburg famous -- who wants to go like that in their car? You think the Pinto was bad in a rear-end collision, try driving a Hindenburg!
The only thing less efficient than hydrogen is the DoE.
The only thing less efficient than hydrogen is the DoE.
2009-06-08 14:46:42
Not even an Honorable Mention
The Hindenburg exploded because of aluminum and creosote. It was in the paint, which exploded like a flaregun. The hydrogen was an after-effect when it burned.
Gasoline carries much more energy for explosive power, and in convenient liquid form. That's why they don't make Napalm from hydrogen and Tide....
Gasoline carries much more energy for explosive power, and in convenient liquid form. That's why they don't make Napalm from hydrogen and Tide....
2009-06-08 15:44:55
Energy
I have heard the comparision before. I am sure the numbers would show you to be correct.
How ever, The EPA has mandated changes in gasoline and diesel fuel that raised the price of transportation fuels, some thing the power companies have not had to incurr. This is in addition to the auto / truck engine manufactures having spent BILLIONS of dollars on federally mandated emission controls which reduced fuel economy of transportation vehicles, again, an issue skirted by the stationary power industies.
If, (when?) the EPA decides to mandate an equitable emissions program to stationary emmiters that is comparable to the transportation industry, the cost will be passed on to the consumer leveling out the cost / benefits.
In fact, with transportation having to use speacial fuels, improves the cost and availability of # 6 fuel oil.
As to off peak charging... you pick the number, 50,000 vehicles charging their vehicle batteries between 6:00pm EDT and to 2:00 am EDT?
We also may have to factor in the need for a new, expanded electrical grid system.
Rolling brown outs will be the result, because it will take the country decades to bring power plants, or alternative sources on line.
A leasing system seems to be the route most plug in vehicle manufactures will go. Of coarse it is an added cost.
Regardless, it will be interestiung to see the results.
How ever, The EPA has mandated changes in gasoline and diesel fuel that raised the price of transportation fuels, some thing the power companies have not had to incurr. This is in addition to the auto / truck engine manufactures having spent BILLIONS of dollars on federally mandated emission controls which reduced fuel economy of transportation vehicles, again, an issue skirted by the stationary power industies.
If, (when?) the EPA decides to mandate an equitable emissions program to stationary emmiters that is comparable to the transportation industry, the cost will be passed on to the consumer leveling out the cost / benefits.
In fact, with transportation having to use speacial fuels, improves the cost and availability of # 6 fuel oil.
As to off peak charging... you pick the number, 50,000 vehicles charging their vehicle batteries between 6:00pm EDT and to 2:00 am EDT?
We also may have to factor in the need for a new, expanded electrical grid system.
Rolling brown outs will be the result, because it will take the country decades to bring power plants, or alternative sources on line.
A leasing system seems to be the route most plug in vehicle manufactures will go. Of coarse it is an added cost.
Regardless, it will be interestiung to see the results.
2009-06-08 18:24:59
Not even an Honorable Mention
Yeah, like most rear end collisions, probably, where the fire starts with aluminum and paint. The Hindenburg had low-pressure gas bags... cars would have high-pressure canisters or tanks --- talk about flares, this would be more like a Roman Candle!
As a liquid, gasoline does not burn - gasoline must be vaporized to burn, that is why carburetors are needed- hydrogen is already a gas. Kaboom!
Napalm is a gel made in part from gasoline. The gel causes the fuel to run into caves or buildings and stick to people and equipment while burning. Perhaps you were thinking of air / fuel bombs that explode above targets -- again, the carburetor effect is needed by premixing the oxidizer and fuel prior to ignition, unlike the gasoline tank of a car that only has fuel (the carburetor mixes air at the engine intake).
As a liquid, gasoline does not burn - gasoline must be vaporized to burn, that is why carburetors are needed- hydrogen is already a gas. Kaboom!
Napalm is a gel made in part from gasoline. The gel causes the fuel to run into caves or buildings and stick to people and equipment while burning. Perhaps you were thinking of air / fuel bombs that explode above targets -- again, the carburetor effect is needed by premixing the oxidizer and fuel prior to ignition, unlike the gasoline tank of a car that only has fuel (the carburetor mixes air at the engine intake).
2009-06-09 06:08:53
Not even an Honorable Mention
Of course - that is why carburetors work... but an open container of gasoline takes hours or days to vaporize, not milliseconds. The fiery crashes on TV are not typical car crashes - special effects that are staged to be spectacular. In any case running into liquid gasoline doesn't start a fire - but sparks from scraping metal do... as in airplanes crash landing.
Personally my everyday car is a diesel - carburetors don't work and when it gets to 15 deg it won't even start with glowplugs. The less volatile a fuel is, the safer it is - coal-fired cars were pretty darned safe, eh? When it comes to car crashes I feel a lot safer in a diesel than gasoline, electric, or hydrogen.
Personally my everyday car is a diesel - carburetors don't work and when it gets to 15 deg it won't even start with glowplugs. The less volatile a fuel is, the safer it is - coal-fired cars were pretty darned safe, eh? When it comes to car crashes I feel a lot safer in a diesel than gasoline, electric, or hydrogen.
2009-06-09 09:34:03
Not even an Honorable Mention
From Madsci.org:
"I suggest you go to Hazard.com's MSDS database and search for "gasoline." A typical mid-grade gasoline from US Oil and Refining Co has a flash point of -43°C; all gasolines and similar hydrocarbon liquids will have flash points below the freezing point of water. This means that at ANY reasonable ambient temperature, there are dangerous quantities of fumes above any substantial amount of the gasoline. "
The comparison to aluminum and paint in auto collisions is not at all appropriate. I was talking about a powdered aluminum/creosote mixture. Similar to the powdered aluminum mixture used in the solid booster fuel for the space shuttle.
I have no intent of defending the use of hydrogen in automobiles. It is wasteful compared to electric vehicle use, and gasoline is more efficient technologically. I was just pointing out that the misconceptions of the Hindenburg are still with us and influencing our thinking about hydrogen. The hydrogen can also be transported and stored dissolved in metal instead of compressed in an empty tank, limiting its flow rate after a collision.
"I suggest you go to Hazard.com's MSDS database and search for "gasoline." A typical mid-grade gasoline from US Oil and Refining Co has a flash point of -43°C; all gasolines and similar hydrocarbon liquids will have flash points below the freezing point of water. This means that at ANY reasonable ambient temperature, there are dangerous quantities of fumes above any substantial amount of the gasoline. "
The comparison to aluminum and paint in auto collisions is not at all appropriate. I was talking about a powdered aluminum/creosote mixture. Similar to the powdered aluminum mixture used in the solid booster fuel for the space shuttle.
I have no intent of defending the use of hydrogen in automobiles. It is wasteful compared to electric vehicle use, and gasoline is more efficient technologically. I was just pointing out that the misconceptions of the Hindenburg are still with us and influencing our thinking about hydrogen. The hydrogen can also be transported and stored dissolved in metal instead of compressed in an empty tank, limiting its flow rate after a collision.
2009-06-09 10:34:09
What about the Honda Stack?
http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/FCX/fcstack/evolution/
End user reports on these test vehicles seem very positive to date.
The real bottleneck isn't the technology's efficiency, it is mass delivery and build-out of the fueling stations that would be necessary to power these vehicles.
Didn't GM promise to leapfrog hybrids into hydrogen fuel cell development with the sneering commentary that they could do better than their hybrid-producing competition? And didn't meat puppet George Bush stump for this position on their behalf? And did the American public decry these transparent lies? No, pass the Hummer please and make it an H3.
And we're shocked, simply shocked, that our economy is in a quagmire and that GM is now guzzling their way through the public trough, singlehandedly incurring more public debt than any other once-private company in the history of capitalism. Sad.
Too bad we didn't take that same bail-out money and give it to Tesla or some other start-up that could help our country to innovate our way out of some of this mess, instead of handing GM a shovel to dig us a deeper hole.
http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/FCX/fcstack/evolution/
End user reports on these test vehicles seem very positive to date.
The real bottleneck isn't the technology's efficiency, it is mass delivery and build-out of the fueling stations that would be necessary to power these vehicles.
Didn't GM promise to leapfrog hybrids into hydrogen fuel cell development with the sneering commentary that they could do better than their hybrid-producing competition? And didn't meat puppet George Bush stump for this position on their behalf? And did the American public decry these transparent lies? No, pass the Hummer please and make it an H3.
And we're shocked, simply shocked, that our economy is in a quagmire and that GM is now guzzling their way through the public trough, singlehandedly incurring more public debt than any other once-private company in the history of capitalism. Sad.
Too bad we didn't take that same bail-out money and give it to Tesla or some other start-up that could help our country to innovate our way out of some of this mess, instead of handing GM a shovel to dig us a deeper hole.
2009-06-09 10:55:16
Lies and more lies
You have to make it, and that requires wasting energy.
well, let me think for 1 second - as that is all the time I need to realize how stupid this statement is
when one runs a combustion engine, it is WASTING ENERGY
so why not mine it while you drive it!!!
Huh???? have a little water tank, filled like the fuel tank, which then feeds the hydrogen electrolysis system run off the engine power and feeds into the fuel injectors directly
eezy peezy nice and CHEAP
Huh?? kits costs around $150 and would be even cheaper if mass produced
so with a few bucks and ingenuity you to can get 50% more mileage out of your current mobile
the only thing holding me back is the STUPID state emissions which doesn't sanction this and calls it an unapproved modification - of course I don't have the million $$ to get it approved
but I'm willing to work with entrepenuer minded minyans to get it approved
well, let me think for 1 second - as that is all the time I need to realize how stupid this statement is
when one runs a combustion engine, it is WASTING ENERGY
so why not mine it while you drive it!!!
Huh???? have a little water tank, filled like the fuel tank, which then feeds the hydrogen electrolysis system run off the engine power and feeds into the fuel injectors directly
eezy peezy nice and CHEAP
Huh?? kits costs around $150 and would be even cheaper if mass produced
so with a few bucks and ingenuity you to can get 50% more mileage out of your current mobile
the only thing holding me back is the STUPID state emissions which doesn't sanction this and calls it an unapproved modification - of course I don't have the million $$ to get it approved
but I'm willing to work with entrepenuer minded minyans to get it approved
2009-06-09 17:46:22
Lies and more lies
On a small scale, the system you describe is similar to the one I have seen. It was used as a duel fuel with gasoline due to it's inability to produce the needed volume.
Part of my point has been... Pick a technology that can be accomplished and let us move forward!
I agree we need more mass tranit, and clearly electric plug in and hybrid vehicles will be part of the mix.
Folks continue to discount all methedologies and so we make no progress.
Can we continue to be in the same position we were 20 years ago?!
TWENTY YEARS OF TESTING AND TRYING AND WE HAVE MADE NO PROGRESS.
And the best we can do is Ethenole? Less BTU and more toxic than Gasoline, and driving the marine indurtry crazy with corosion issues.
Although I agree that there are more suitable fuels than Hydrogen to add to transportation mix, storage of Hydrogen is not that difficult. There are alot of examples of fuels compressed for storage that are not exploding on a regular basis. LPG and CNG are used in law enforcement Ft Myers, Fl, AND school buses the state of Washington.
UPS, FED EX,and others have been using CNG for decades.
In Clearwater Fl, a company was converting vehicles for the state as well as for the Olympics when they were held in Atlanta.
Keep doing what you have been doing, and you will keep getting what you have been getting.
Part of my point has been... Pick a technology that can be accomplished and let us move forward!
I agree we need more mass tranit, and clearly electric plug in and hybrid vehicles will be part of the mix.
Folks continue to discount all methedologies and so we make no progress.
Can we continue to be in the same position we were 20 years ago?!
TWENTY YEARS OF TESTING AND TRYING AND WE HAVE MADE NO PROGRESS.
And the best we can do is Ethenole? Less BTU and more toxic than Gasoline, and driving the marine indurtry crazy with corosion issues.
Although I agree that there are more suitable fuels than Hydrogen to add to transportation mix, storage of Hydrogen is not that difficult. There are alot of examples of fuels compressed for storage that are not exploding on a regular basis. LPG and CNG are used in law enforcement Ft Myers, Fl, AND school buses the state of Washington.
UPS, FED EX,and others have been using CNG for decades.
In Clearwater Fl, a company was converting vehicles for the state as well as for the Olympics when they were held in Atlanta.
Keep doing what you have been doing, and you will keep getting what you have been getting.
2009-06-10 12:24:45
Fuel Cells
Your comments remind me how rediculous people thought the steam engine was, it kept blowing up: How rediculous trains were, they needed to build tracks to use them and the engines kept blowing up; how rediculous cars were, they could on handle two people, roads were terrible, tires kept going flat, no gas stations and gas could ignite and cause fire; how rediculous airplanes were, they could not carry passengers, needed oopen fields to land on, kept crashing and killing those on board.
Now when the Japanese are resdy to market fuel cells for local hydrogen generation that will also produce all your electrical and heat needs and run on natural gas while generating hydrogen to run their fuel cell cars, you want to turn the worlds market over to them alone.
Now when the Japanese are resdy to market fuel cells for local hydrogen generation that will also produce all your electrical and heat needs and run on natural gas while generating hydrogen to run their fuel cell cars, you want to turn the worlds market over to them alone.
2009-06-13 17:11:44
Lies and more lies
Yes, you just ran straight into the wall of the combined industrialist government partnership that will kill the idea.
2009-06-20 18:10:40
Not even an Honorable Mention
Mythbusters pretty much disproved the Hindenburg burning skin myth. I used to believe it myself.
Now I have to ask "who benefits the most from battery operated cars?" I think I'll have to invest in coal companies.
OTOH, if we take a massive hit to the electrical grid, as in a coronal mass ejection from the sun, it all becomes moot. Society will collapse before the grid comes back up. And 2012 is supposed to be a peak year for solar activity.
Now I have to ask "who benefits the most from battery operated cars?" I think I'll have to invest in coal companies.
OTOH, if we take a massive hit to the electrical grid, as in a coronal mass ejection from the sun, it all becomes moot. Society will collapse before the grid comes back up. And 2012 is supposed to be a peak year for solar activity.
2009-06-21 13:09:59
Not even an Honorable Mention
I've only seen Mythbusters a couple of times, and I was not impressed with their inability to do things, but then, many of the things I have accomplished with technology have seemed impossible to others.
The burning skin of the Hindenburg is not a myth, but a scientific report of a German engineer familiar with the technology and the procedures of the time. Trying to replicate the exact composition is pretty much impossible, as well as the conditions.
Mythbusters is like MacGuyver in reverse: Everything he did worked but shouldn't have. Everything they try fails, but with a little more talent and time, might not.
The burning skin of the Hindenburg is not a myth, but a scientific report of a German engineer familiar with the technology and the procedures of the time. Trying to replicate the exact composition is pretty much impossible, as well as the conditions.
Mythbusters is like MacGuyver in reverse: Everything he did worked but shouldn't have. Everything they try fails, but with a little more talent and time, might not.
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