Elliott Wave Supremacy

By David Waggoner Apr 28, 2008 8:45 am
Principle has held true for 1000 years.
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Ralph Nelson Elliott originally published his stock market behavior theory in a series of articles written for The Financial World magazine in 1939. This was a very popular investor publication at the time and the articles were very well received. The editors introduced the articles with the following statement:

During the past seven or eight years, publishers of financial magazines and organizations in the investment advisory field have been virtually flooded with “systems” for which their proponents have claimed great accuracy in forecasting stock market movements. Some of them appeared to work for awhile. It was immediately obvious that others had no value whatever. All have been looked upon by The Financial World with great skepticism. But after investigation, we became convinced that a series of articles on this subject would be interesting and instructive to our subscribers. We leave to the individual reader a determination of the value of Mr. Elliott’s principle as a basis for market forecasting, but believe that it is likely to prove at least a useful check on conclusions based upon economic considerations.”


In 1946 he integrated those articles into his seminal work, Natures Law-The Secret of the Universe. Here, he extrapolated his observed market behavior into a universal law of behavior that encompassed all of man’s activities

I use the word seminal somewhat in jest here, because twenty odd years later, Robert Prechter attempted to locate a copy of the original manuscript for his research, and he was only able to locate one photo-copied version of it in the New York Public Library. A copy did not even exist in the Library of Congress.

Did Elliott commit professional establishment suicide by tying a credible stock market system to a seemingly incredible theory? Was this the equivalent of Nicola Tesla claiming to have spoken with Aliens?

The pragmatist will argue that the manuscript was relegated to the dust bin of history because that's where it belonged. After all, if it were true, everyone would use it, and then, it would stop working anyway. This Catch-22 type of logic is used repeatedly to dispel technical analysis.

Admittedly, even most technical analysts don’t believe a pattern can last forever. Robert Prechter wrote that when he decided to write about and publish the Elliott Wave Principle for larger public consideration, he was in fact approached numerous times with an appeal to keep it secret. “Those who understood its value and used it successfully feared that if too many people started using the wave principle in their investment timing, it would dilute its utility.”

In the book Cycles: The Mysterious Forces That Trigger Events, Edward R. Dewy tells us that in 1912 information was leaked to a group of New York Investors that the Rothschilds had identified, and were profiting from, a series of repeating cycles in British bonds.

The investors hired a mathematician to discover the secret formula of the Rothschilds who - working with the Dow Jones railroad average - discovered a repeating forty-one month cycle, and three lesser period cycles which the New York investors then used to invest in the market with great success for many years.

These cycles did not garner any attention until they were discovered by Professor Kitchin, of Harvard in 1922. Even then, they remained relatively obscure and only gained public attention when they were discovered yet a third time, by Chapin Hoskins in 1935. After discovering them, he prepared studies about the cycles for the investment brokerage community. This rhythm, named the Kitchin cycle, continued to work flawlessly until 1945, then stopped working as mysteriously as it had started. The cycle had worked continuously, without interruption from 1868 until 1945.

Some attributed the change to public awareness. Students of cycle theory accept that short term cycles don’t last, or work consistently. The Kitchin cycle reappeared later in an inverted pattern, somewhat less reliably.

The Kitchin cycle (sink) lasted 78 years before it was thrown out. It operated independent of the other cycles as a stand-alone repeating pattern, and yielded great profits for its followers.

The Elliott wave principle’s largest recognizable patterns were identified by Frost and Prechter in their book, The Elliott Wave Principle. The first was formed by splicing a chart of seven centuries of consumable prices (Economica, New Series Vol.23, No.92 (Nov.,1956), pp.296-314), to industrial stock prices, for which recorded history started in 1789. This formed a one thousand year (5-3-5-3-5) Elliott impulse wave pattern. Think of this as the largest Russian nesting doll. The subsequent dolls in descending succession, are the Grand Supercycle (1789-2000), and the Supercycle (1932-2000).

Millennium Cycle

Click to enlarge


Grand Supercycle

Click to enlarge


Supercycle

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No positions in stocks mentioned.

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(19)
2008-04-28 09:30:17
Where is Karl Popper When We Need Him?
Science requires disconfirmability, no? All these, "it might go down, or we might find continuing weakness--either way Elliott was right!" are just the sort of thing that allow predictive "principles" to last a thousand years.
2008-04-28 09:32:08
Oops
Sorry, I meant "It might go UP...." obviously.
2008-04-28 09:43:14
Where is Karl Popper When We Need Him?
See the earlier comments/exchanges on the previous two Elliott Wave articles. I believe your comments are correct, and the arguments against Elliott Wave theory in those posts have yet to be refuted--in my opinion.
2008-04-28 11:09:00
Thanks, Orvin
I've read your comments on a previous piece and I think they're excellent. I appreciate your pointing me to them.

Seems to me that the articles are unnecessarily complicated. I don't need to understand the details to know, e.g., that the Special Theory of Relativity is correct--as long as someone does and can successfully use it to make predictions that I can confirm as having been correct. (Like Michelson-Morley)

So look: We give a date in the future and ask the Wave Theorists to tell us what the Principles now indicate the Dow (or the S & P or whatever) will be on that date. No Ifs, Maybes or Buts. The theory gets it right or is disconfirmed. What could be simpler?

2008-04-28 13:05:29
Thanks, Orvin
You're welcome--thanks. The complications in these technical analysis articles help mask the general equivocation of the commentary. If you strip these complications away, you usually get the sentence/paragraph formula: "If the market goes to point X, then we MIGHT see a move to point Y, whereas if the market goes to point W, then we MIGHT see a move to point Z---but be careful and watch your position!" In this way, all bases are covered. At the same time, the complications involve variables that can be called upon later to explain deviations from predictions (however diluted these predictions might have been anyway). When you combine the (1) general equivocation, (2) reliance on "complications" as a backup explanation and finally (3) the 50% or so probability that a general prediction (up or down) will turn out to be right anyway, it is no wonder that people can get away with writing technical analysis articles for years. Oh--and statistically speaking--some % of them are going to be right much more than 50% of the time too, notwithstanding their theory's actual predictive power. And although this % of "lucky few" is small, the public attention that they get will inevitably be disproportionately large, for obvious reasons. Notice how each of the three elements above specifically compensates for the fact that no one theory or individual can predict the thousands of influences (inputs) on the stock market. You can predict some of the inputs (directly) some of the time, or all of the inputs (indirectly) some of the time (by correctly predicting the market), but you can't predict all of the inputs all of the time. I think your challenge makes sense, although the theory would have to make an accurate prediction much more than once in a row to not be "disconfirmed"...
2008-04-28 15:50:39
Thanks, Orvin
We're obviously in complete agreement.

I just want to clarify that I believe a single failure WOULD count as a disconfirmation of the theory. That claim doesn't imply that "not being disconfirmed" in a single instances constitutes complete confirmation. As you correctly indicate, confirmation would require many correct predictions as well as the absence of incorrect predictions.

Best,

W
2008-04-28 19:55:46
What could be simpler?
What could be simpler? Does it make money? EWP Plus on Collective2.com is up 94% in the last 30 days and has a rated ADP ratio of .41 low/medium risk. Put a system out there and I will be happy to contrast your rate of returns (fundamental analysis) vs mine (technical analysis) on at least a monthly basis. (no cheating though, and looking at technical indicators on charts.)
2008-04-28 21:29:42
What could be simpler?
I congratulate heartily you on your good luck (over the last 90 days) and certainly wish you continued success. I don't know why you think I utilyze a "rate of return (fundamental analysis)" I don't think I suggested anything like that. What I actually did say is that Elliott Wave is a pseudo science. Your great good fortune over the past three months is hardly responsive to that complaint.

2008-04-28 21:41:31
What could be simpler?
My apologies, I assumed you were of the same ilk as your sniping buddy. Maybe Orvin will take the challenge. At what point does it cease to be luck, 6 months, one year, two years? Psuedoscientific minds want to know.
2008-04-28 22:00:05
What could be simpler?
It ceases to be a pseudo-science when

*It makes falsifiable claims
*Other believers in the theory will make the same predictions based on the same data
*It indicates precise measures of success--not things like--Hey I can make more money than you next month (God knows that's no big deal).

Is this 94% return you mention supposed to prove something? If I find somebody with a 150% return over the same period, must such person have a better theory than you? Why, e.g., wasn't it 294% rather 94%? Imprecise tools? Noise? How can one tell? If it goes down to 35% over the next 3 months is it still right? When would it not be right?

In other words, it has to be more like astronomy than astrology.
2008-04-28 22:27:36
What could be simpler?
I have half dozen acquaintances who see what I see, and often see what I don't see, and when they point it out to me, I can see it too. And, vice versa. There is an entire pseudo-scientific community that can see the same thing. Once you identify the current state, there are only a few probable outcomes. Often, it can be reduced to one. I can repeat it, again and again. I can teach others to see it.
2008-04-28 23:38:14
i love the interplay
really, this is great

these are sharp careful thrusts to the truth by each of you (and don't ask me 'cause i don't know :-)

i truly hope the dialog continues over time

2008-04-29 00:25:45
What could be simpler?
It would indeed be instructive and constructive to show how you arrive at the 94% figure. Could you refer us to the set of recommendations that were made at the time, both those that worked out and those that didn't (i.e. completely exhaustive)? What security was being traded?

BTW, I must apologize for my "sniping" style, but Elliott Wave theory itself (not necessarily all of its promoters) makes me growl with primordial hate...

-Regards
-Orvin
2008-04-29 08:57:32
What could be simpler?
All trades are in the direction of the analysis written about at themarketdetective.com and here, on buzz and banter. I say direction because I did trade smaller times frames in some cases than what I wrote about. If I had stuck to the time frame of the analysis written about, the results would be better. Past articles on Buzz and banter can be searched by author. If you are not a subscriber, I will at some point in future post my archived banter at TheMarketdetective.com.

regards,

david
2008-04-29 09:29:44
What could be simpler?
Everything there seems to start in March/April 2008. How far back do the concrete recommendations for the precise EWP strategy you're talking about go? -Thanks
2008-04-29 10:44:23
What could be simpler?
I think there was one significant trade that preceded what is out there. It was the end of a triple combination (only one option follows). I have it archived. If you are an academic social scientist looking for a more controlled study, I could do that too.
2008-04-29 15:46:05
What could be simpler?
Minyan Waggoner,

With all due respect, and please believe that I am trying to keep an open mind, I've read everything you've posted (though I have not read the books you recommend, just to be fair). . . But I have yet to glean any actionable intelligence from it. The short form is that these Elliot Waves just don't convey any meaningful information to my feeble mind.

So far, there hasn't been anything there that I didn't already know or deduce by other means. Everything has been converging on this price level (1400 on the S&P). For the last month every calendar has had tomorrow circled. WHat we don't know is direction. But we have a pretty good clue as to timing.

With that in mind, I've got two positions on. . . strangles on the VIX and on the SPY.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that as of yet, I've gotten no edge from these waves, and until I do I have no choice but to be skeptical. But like Fox Mulder, "I want to believe. . ."
2008-04-29 17:01:10
What could be simpler?
The reason I ask is that there seemed to be dozens of other 50%+ return strategies on collective2 for that period (most "non-EWP"). In fact anybody generally short/levered did very well, and we shouldn't assume much less than about a 50% chance of that for any particular levered strategy. I think you need to see a few years' worth of data for it to be meaningful. What did this strategy do in '07, '06, '05 etc.? Perhaps someone has done an independent study (using real trades and not hypothetical executions, though). In the meantime, the a priori argument that we're dealing with "totally unmysterious, known unknowns" remains unchallenged in my opinion.

I'm no social scientist, and I can't step up to any challenge, because I never claimed to be a "trader" either. I bought the S&p ETF in July '02, held it since then. Bought much more the Monday of the bear stearns announcement (especially japan, but also qqqq). am now 40% exposed to stocks plain vanilla. hoping to get in another 40% if S&P goes to 1205 or so. But if not, I will buy real estate. So the market will tell me whether or not I'm allowed to buy or whether I must look elsewhere for cheap assets---I don't try to predict what it will tell me, I just act when it does tell me something, like "Hey, I'm cheap---don't worry how I got here, but I'm cheap". I have made 12 trades since 1996 in total (all winners except one I aborted after a week with a $500 loss, but that kind of track record is not very difficult when you only trade once every 12-15 months or so and have an avg. holding period over two years...)
2008-04-29 17:30:25
What could be simpler?
If you have a minute, I'll tell you how to make money in stocks. Buy low, sell high. Now, if you have five or ten years, I'll show you how to tell when stocks are low or high. -- Jesse L. Livermore

If you want to believe like Mulder, you must duplicate his passion. It won't take five or ten years, but it will take more than a few hours.

regards,

david

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