Wow, interesting article and comments. This is a painful story but pain is what today and tomorrow are all about. A lot of people are going to lose a lot of money and a lot of jobs and it will devastate them. Sad but inevitable.

Bennigan's, Steak and Ale, IndyMac, Bear Stearns, dozens of newspapers, more banks, thousands of realtors, tens of thousands of manufacturing jobs (autos, appliances, construction), hundreds of small companies...

On and on. Pain upon pain upon pain. Lives ruined.

Our financial system is divided into two sections- the section that knows we're screwed and the section that is in total denial.

Either way, the next twelve months will be a disaster. Every month will bring more job losses, fewer loan payments, more repo's, fewer loans and untold billions of dollars going out of the country to pay for energy, clothing, appliances...

We are so screwed. So screwed. So sad. We forgot how to live within our means. We dreamed of saving the earth, but the earth doesn't need saving. We need to save ourselves, but we forgot how to balance a check book.

I think every UAL pilot knows full well the ramifications of playing hookie. The point of so called "job action" is missed though. I think, and I'm not a UAL pilot, is that the frustration level is so high now that most don't really care anymore about any consequences that there might be. The pilot career at UAL is a shadow of it's former self. The comment I hear the most is " What could they possibly do to us that hasn't already been done- furlough me?- Good- Now I can get on with my life" Sad but true.

Well, you know the Pilots of United Airlines did the same thing in 2000. If you think the customers will remember this next summer when airfares are higher because of reduced capacity, think again. They will book on the cheapest airline and that is all they care about.

As far as the pilots go....well, they did the company in during their summer of he!! in 2000 and they are the ones who lost their pension, their ESOP stock and some their jobs.

I think at this point it is they would rather the entire company shut down then to give the company one more dime. IIRC United recently paid out, in the first quarter of this year, a huge dividend to the stockholders, Glenn Tilton and company have tried hard to dress the company up for sale, only to be left at the alter twice.

But, in this case, I think UAUA is headed for the same place in history as PanAm, TWA, Eastern, Braniff. Those former great companies demoralized by poor management whose idea is to make a quick buck today. Again, IIRC Glenn Tilton came from Cheveron Texaco, got his pension BK proofed and a huge salary.

So I don't blame the pilots. Southwest isn't cutting flights, but UA's cuts are a little too deep that will be the end of them. You can not cut an airline into profitability. I said it when I worked for UA and I'll say it today....all you want you will never cut an airline into profitability for the long haul.

My guess is that CAL will buy up what they need from UA, JetBlue will get the domestic A320/A319's and that will be the end of UA. CAL will take the Pacific, the 747's, 777's, 767's and the 757's. CAL will also take LHR and ORD. They will give DEN, IAD and SFO to JetBlue. Considering that CAL is joining Star, it is only a matter of time. JetBlue will take DEN, IAD and SFO along with the entire Airbus fleet. The pilots will then find themselves at the bottom of the payscale because unlike when UA bought the Pacific from PanAm, neither CAL nor JetBlue will buy the pilots to fly the equipment as it will be done in Chapter 7 to ensure they can void the contracts.

But this is just my opinion.

Now if I were running UA today, I would do the following. I would not retire a single plane. I would hunker down and work with all the groups to ensure that we could survive the short term. The stock is almost at an all time low so I would buy back as much stock as possible to get Wall Street off my back and then I could focus on running a business for the long term, not for next quarters profit.

I would find a way to make peace with the unions at any cost because happy employees make happy customers. I would clean house at WHQ and get rid of all the fools who are overpaid and underworked. I would rid the company of those manager who do not work, and evaluate why my supervisors and managers at the stations only work max 40hours a week but draw a great salary.

But that is me. I have a whole plan on how I would run the airline, how to make it shine again and would get it back to number one in the eyes of the employees and customers. And you wouldn't have to pay me millions upon millions a year.

I'm a UAL pilot and don't like being accused of a crime.

I'm having to sell my house because of United. Maybe I could sue you and make enough cash to pay off the house?

"Today's study question for the pilots: What does the saying "you can't squeeze blood from a turnip" mean?"

Are you kidding me?

Let's talk about UAL senior management getting a $135 million retention bonus this summer when the price of oil was $140/brl.

Even better, how about the stock dividend UAUA paid out. Yes, they will tell you that the employees benefited. You bet they did. Glenn Tilton, UAL CEO, received north of $800,000 for the dividend.

UAL pilots, except for USAirways, are the lowest paid for the equipment they fly. Would you like to guess who the highest paid CEO is for all companies in Chicago Il in 2007? That would be Glenn Tilton. Would you like to guess the top four non-ceo compensation for 2007 in Chicago? You guessed it. UAL's senior management. In fact, those four made the top 15 list for CEO's in Chicago for 2007.

Really? If you went to Morgan Stanley and cut salary by 50% and wiped out retirement, how many people would stay? The seniority system at airlines creates a barrier to mobility, but at some point the opportunity cost of staying under drastically reduced pay and working conditions just doesn't make sense. At that point collective action is a rational response -- history (i.e. Northwest last summer) illustrates that leverage can improve result in improved working conditions. And if it doesn't, nobody is really worse off for trying. The senior pilots retire with whatever savings they have and everyone else makes more money doing something else. Sure, each individual could simply quit, but why not undertake collective initiative and at least attempt to restore some degree of respectability to the profession. Regarding squeezing blood from stones -- from the pilots' perspective there really isn't that much to lose anymore.

Keep in mind that pay isn't the only issue; a lot of pilots chose the career because of the lifestyle -- while "work rules" sounds like a petty phrase for old style union featherbedding to office workers who travel home to leafy suburbs every night (many of whom have no comprehension of line production jobs either as labor or management) -- for those of us on the line "work rules" translates into being there or not -- for all that any of us hold dear. Change the rules too much and the smart pilots (more than the author of the article might expect) might as well be consultants and the stupid ones (fewer than the author probably suspects) sell cars -- both make more money with more time at home -- so, again, why is collective action irrational when there is nothing left to lose?

Why must the highest paid employees at a company, who exhort the minions (not us Minyans) to "give it your all, show us your loyalty", be bribed not to jump ship when the going gets tough.
Because top managements loyalty is to their wallet.

No one likes to take a paycut. Still these United Pilot jobs pay very well compared to the rest of the general workforce. When making 100K plus a year there are certain professional standards one must follow, and that is two the line when your company is in trouble. I hope United makes it through these tough times, I just hope the pilots would get it together and not screwup a great franchise. I would say if you don't like it, just leave, or stick with management and stay the course. You have a great job with a great company, it's up to you!

Mr. Temple,

It's clear that you have never been employed with a "great franchise" whose management has been raping it for years. Why don't you consider becoming a major shareholder to help United Airlines make it through these tough times? No? Perhaps that's because you make only prudent investments? Even wall street will no longer "stick with management and stay the course". Great companies prosper with great management. Neither is thought of United Airlines these days.

"Professional standards one must follow" According to the FAA, if a pilot is stressed, he cannot legally fly. A pilot losing his job for the second time during a job market where there are little if any flying jobs would be stressed. A professional pilot is one who would say I am not safe to fly.

"I just hope the pilots would get it together and not screwup a great franchise." Great brand name yes. Franchise? UAL spent 3 years in bankruptcy only once again to have the highest non labor costs in the industry. Which airline parked an entire 777 fleet? The
airline said the planes had lapsed safety inspections and laid blame at Boeing's feet, only to find out later that they didn't have to park the planes at all. Which airline has the best route structure alongside a management team who can't figure out how to utilize the routes except shrink them? Which airline management has demoralized it's employees and then said "morale is not my problem"? I could go on and on.

"I would say if you don't like it, just leave, or stick with management and stay the course." This just proves that you sir, no nothing about the employment prospects of an airline pilot. The seniority system used by airlines, prevents little if any lateral mobility for employment at other airlines.

The employees at United are a dedicated group of people. They are some of the finest people you'll ever meet. They are demoralized and beaten by a management that doesn't care about them. When you find a management at United that values employees not as numbers but as people, United will once again be a great airline.

Where is Pat Patterson when you need him?

I think that this is an industry problem as well as a United Problem. No doubt the career of a piot is now what it was 15-20 years ago. In fairness alot of other careers are not the same and I am sorry for that. Part of the problem with UAL and some other carriers is that yaers ago they gave away the company to many union demands with silly outdtaed work rules. As the market forces changed these labor demands put too much pressure on these carriers, and after 9/11 something had to give.

As far as senority at an airline, I think that was ALPA's doing, not the carriers. Additionally, if a little financial stress may be too much to handle when flying, what are you gonna do when you have an aird=craft emergency? That my friend is stress.

Good luck to you and UAL.

Typical of financial commentators missing the point is this article spanking the pilot's hand. More important would be to look at the gross personal wealth benefits bleeding of the company by upper management with bonuses, more stock options and the incompetence in running an airline.

Pilots are required by Federal Air Regulations to not fly when sick. The demands by the company to fly more hours, backside of the clock, multiple time zone changes and away from home with inconsistent and inefficient schedules cause fatigue and a lowered immune system. Are you suggesting, as is the company management, that pilots should deliberately ignore Federal law and fly while sick? Why, when management rewards themselves on the backs of rank and file workers, should the workers bend rules and volunteer to fly on days off and expose themselves to more fatigue? The airline is poorly managed, pure and simple and understaffed. Pilots don't have a say in how much staff is needed, why are they blamed when they want to spend scheduled time off with their families?

You people obviously don't get it.

Ed

Full disclosure first. I'm a twenty year airline pilot. (Not United) Six years protecting your right to free smart-butted speech as a naval aviator. First of all, my ample butt is parked in a cockpit seat that makes 15-20% less than it did in 1990. How does that stack up against the pay rates for a biased journalist (I use the term journalist loosely) in 1990. Secondly, you can write your lame column with a head cold from bed. If I show up with a cold I risk giving it to 6 crew members and three hundred passengers as the air recirculates through the cabin, (something sick travelers don't understand, much less consider) and busting an eardrum, ending my career. Oh yeah, I can't medicate and fly and I need the mental edge that feeling good brings, in case I have to land your biases and your children in the fog at Heathrow with 50 foot visability. The pilots took MASSIVE pay cuts while bad managers took huge bonuses (see Robert Nardelli or any airline financial) I defer to the fact that by definition, a bankrupt company has been poorly managed. Until the good ol boys at United realize that they need to run a business instead of milk a cash cow, the airline will Not be robust. Also this "extra time" pilots are refusing to fly is just that. There is no contractual obligation to fly extra time. Bad managers sign contracts that understaff the airline and ask pilots to work harder so they won't have to keep enough people on staff. (insuring employees is expensive, you know) Think of your editor asking you to write an extra 5000 word biased essay a week for free, cause he needs to fire some other writers. It's not a pilots job to get blood from a turnip, just to get you from point A to point B safely. Airline management needs to explain to the public that even though ticket prices are going up and there are miscellaneous charges, that we can't give tickets away for less than it costs to produce the product, just because you want to go to your next lame writers convention for free. Ticket prices can go up 300% and still be below pre deregulation prices. The number of airline seats will remain relatively constant whether United goes under or not, because it is a supply and demand item. These pilots will find jobs in different colored airplanes. Grimmer long term prospects? The news paper of course. Your alternative news source is the internet, with articles written by people who actually know the issues. Your alternative to getting across the country in three hours? It ain't Amtrak, Greyhound or Chevy. Buy a Lear and fly it yourself if you want and good luck doing it for the price of an airline ticket. Final full disclosure. I don't hate journalists. My brother in law, whom I admire and respect, is a publisher for McClatchy, and got there by reporting the news, not spouting un-thought out poorly researched drivel. Stick with what you know and give us a Brittany Spears column next time. Mike Standefer

I want to understand the statement below better :

For the lay person that seems like a piece of cake, but remember, that's only when the plane is moving. 95 hrs means 340 hours away from your family /mo.

Can anyone elaborate on how that happens ?
Are you guys staying away from your base of operation. Like say your base is ORD and you live in Montana. Or will someone living in Chicago and flying out of ORD still spend 340 hours away from family. Please feel free to be as descriptive as possible.

"Additionally, if a little financial stress may be too much to handle when flying, what are you gonna do when you have an aird=craft emergency? That my friend is stress"

A little financial stress? Losing your job when there are no other jobs available in the U.S. That's not a job loss, that's a career change my friend. At 40+ yrs old, that more than a little stress. Emergencies are easy for these pilots, looking your kids in the eye when they are hungry is not.

"ALPA's fault?" Well, you get 25,000 major airline pilots to agree to a seniority list. If you can accomplish that, head over to the sand box and lend a hand to the Israelis and Palestinians. Airlines know they have they pilots over a barrel, and they take advantage of it.

"In fairness alot of other careers are not the same and I am sorry for that. Part of the problem with UAL and some other carriers is that yaers ago they gave away the company to many union demands with silly outdtaed work rules." 50% pay cuts, loss of pension, loss of $200-500K of ESOP stop, loss of countless benefits, work rules etc. etc. Now spending 300-340 hrs /mo away from your families. Look at a United pilot close in the face and tell me he is not tired or burnt out. This I would call a career gutting. But hey, you get what you pay for. I can't wait to see what you get in a new pilot 20 yrs from now. Talk about stressful emergencies.

"Union demands and silly outdated work rules." United's narrowbody pilots currently work up to 95 flight hours/ month. For the lay person that seems like a piece of cake, but remember, that's only when the plane is moving. 95 hrs means 340 hours away from your family /mo. It's only due to their skill and professionalism that they haven't wrapped an aircraft hull around the flagpole. If you can see a pilot, chances are he is not getting paid.

Finally those silly little rules keep the pilots from being fatigued. These rules for many major carriers have been wiped out over the last 6-7 yrs. Would you like to take a guess why the FAA is so concerned about fatigue nowadays.

Take Care

I know for a fact, not one A320 or 737 First Officer is making 100K at United. This is the focus of United's "alleged sick leave abuses". In fact, first year pilots make under 27K... second year is not much better.

I am a United pilot have been so for 9 yrs....and what you do not hear is that although most of us in the aviation industry know that times are hard, oil and all, we as an industry have stood by and seen our pay be cut in half, lost our pensions, lost contractual working rules that made this a job sought after but not easily attained....911 and a political environment gave the airlines managers the leverage that they always wanted to fix their broken business plan by gutting the employees pay and benefits, instead of being innovative. Consequentially you now have pilots falling asleep at the wheel ( read what happened in Hawaii a few month ago to regional jet airline. ) , exhausted not only emotionally but more importantly physically ( a very dangerous lethal combination as fatigue is a silent killer ) pilot group. As a group in United unless you are in the international flying sector, where international law has rules to help prevent managers from flying pilots to the point of being dangerous, unlike USA domestic flying where the FAA and the Managers of most airlines feel that it is ok to work pilots to the limit, 20 days away from home up to 360 hours per month ( try having a life being away from home that long, compared to the 160-200 the average worker is away from home ) 5 and 6 days in a row of 15-16 hours of duty ( time at work even if not actually flying, any one who has waited in an airport knows how exhausting just standing or sitting waiting can be ) flying up to the maximum cap allowed of 90-100 hours a month ( Just 8 yrs ago the average pilot flew only 75-80 per month ) making 35-50% less than we all did just 6 yrs ago while our executives are getting 20-30% raises year after year. Now money aside most of and especially at United would tell you that we will accept the lower pay for now, but we need a break from flying this ridiculous schedules. As United gets ready to let go 950 pilots, we have been and still are understaffed by 15% to 20%. Meaning that just allowing the pilots to finally fly a more normal schedule that allows for a life to be had. Simply reducing the average plot to fly 80 hours per month and be away form home 16 days 280-300 hours away from home would allow 200 pilot not loose there jobs and oh yeah not have exhausted pilot in the cockpit. ( An d take note that less flying does mean less take home pay as we only get paid for the actual flying hours and not our very long duty or time away from home )
the 950 pilot that will be let go will create 3000-4000 training events as pilots in a seniority based system are forced to fly other equipments, by the way each training event will cost United $57K, do the math that is $228 million and at least 1 yr to complete this task....Boy they could cut half of that loss, retain 200 pilots and have a more rested safe pilot group...By the way United is just one of what is happening in most airlines right now....

Now what I do not understand is why the news media and congress, do not seem to care, why is this very real danger not being researched and written about. In fact the entire FAA controlled industry is falling apart. The Air Traffic Controllers are in the same position that most pilot are in, over worked under paid, understaffed and most importantly fatigues...uhm key word here again......Many would say but we are safe are we not, we do not hear about accident happening....to those I say go read the NTSB web site, Your National Transportation Safety Board ( The DOT's investigative arm who is not biased by lobbying from the airlines and is only concerned with safety. ) is at this very moment pleading with the DOT and the FAA to do something about this very really dangerous fatigue issues in the airlines industry.....Oh yes and the accident in Lexington that happened 2 yrs ago although in the end the captain was blamed, the a traffic controller who is another chain in the safety net of aviation, had been forced to work over time and had been on duty 22 out 24 hours....he was so fatigued that he gave an airplane on the wrong runway clearance to take off killing 49 people....The FAA will tell you that we are the safest that we have been in 15 yrs, they say this because the FAA
definition of any accident involves death or structure damage to the airplane.....Ask the FAA if there si an increase in incidents and you will get a very scary answer.......Controller are over taxed as much at pilots are now, and near misses of airplane colliding on takeoff, on landing and in mid fight are up to the point that the NTSB is demanding that something be done now..........But the FAA does not answer to the NTSB as there 1st mission statement is to promote aviation and then regulate it...yes folks the FAA is trying to keep the airlines going and then making sure that they are safe....uhm most profitable airline around Southwest, remember what is gong there....go make money but be safe, now those that sound like what you want as the driving force behind the agency that is to be looking out for you r best interest....I think not!.......so yes while the news is now focused on the United pilots so called sickout, what they do not tell the public is that the ultimate responsibility given and required by the FAA who licensed this pilots is that only the pilot knows when he is fit, mentally and physically rested, alert and ready to be 100% the professional that the public expect him/her to be, when they hand over their life's into teh hands of those two aviators in the pointy part of the airplane.......And so when a group of pilot have been worked and beat up to the point that they are no longer safe, It is the pilot responsibility to say I can not work today....the beating up will continue until employees moral improves just can not be allowed to go on.....

Apparently you can squeeze blood from a turnip because UAL CEO Tilton was awarded a $40 million bonus for no reason other than that he could and he and the UAL BOD chose to give away $250 million to UAL shareholders for no good reason except that they could. Meanwhile all the employees of UAL, not just the pilots, continue to work under contracts that were forced upon them during chapter 11 bankruptcy some 5 years ago with the understanding that they were involved in something that required in the words of Tilton "shared sacrifice" for the company to survive. Funny how, once UAL had emerged from chapter 11, the CEO and his cronies were very quickly made whole for their sacrifice, but the rest of the employees have been forced to continue to sacrifice. Yes, there is blood in the turnip, but if you're just a regular employee it seems you will just have to remain in your anemic state while top management enriches itself and laughs all the way to the bank.

I hear you, sounds tough. But given the condition of the indusrty what are your carriers options? The dynamics of the industry had changed. The public simply will not pay $800.00 to go to Cancun, at that point the average Joe stays home. Which means that thay park more and more aircraft, thus fewer jobs.

To address the fatigue; has the union offered some concession to management to help reduce pilot fatigue, maybe less pay but more time off amd more time with the family? What's more important?

I agree these executives are greedy, but how far would the $175 million really go spread out among the 6500 pilots and other employees? Plus these executives have other options with other company's, they need some incentive to stay. Maybe Tilton and his cronies should go, but who's going to run it?

Management cannot be trusted to treat the employees any better than they treat other commodities, e.g., chairs. Is there any doubt about that? OK, then, unions need to be filed under "necessary evils". As to whether this particular union action is wise I don't know. It may be cutting off their noses to spite their faces but when people get that angry there is usually a reason for doing so.

Since I am keenly aware that American's are short on attention allow me to abbreviate my sentiments in an altogether unintelligent manner:

1) The author's premise is false because he lacks a critical piece of information. The sickout occured among A320 copilots all of whom were recalled from furlough within the last year. What they are doing is taking money which is contractually available to themselves because that is what the modern era has taught educated individuals. Whether it's a short sale or a "sick call", folks are taking what they can.

2) Airlines, and United in particular, are the favorite whipping post of American media, but the simple fact remains, it is an industry where the young eat the old, and until the day that capitalism is balanced with humanity or America's desire to lead global consolidation through their own corporations rather than cheap foreign competition (see merchant marine, steel, auto, appliance, clothing, etc) nothing will change and America will continue to hand its best paying jobs to foreigners. Mark my words, you will be flying with Chinese pilots soon enough, but don't worry because the ticket from JFK to HKG will be cheap.

3) I, as an avowed member of the socialist intelligensia and having been educated in an Ivory Tower, have only myself to blame for choosing such an inane industry in which one's entire future is tied to one's date of hire. I am not in agreement with my union's politics, but as a pilot for United, if I lose my job at United which pays $85000/yr (half of what I earned in 2002) I will start a new pilot job at less than $30,000/yr because pilots are paid based on "date of hire" not experience. Shame on me for seeking an "easy" job. Shame on America for forsaking themselves.


The Village Idiot and Royal Curmudgeon

"The public simply will not pay $800.00 to go to Cancun, at that point the average Joe stays home. Which means that thay park more and more aircraft, thus fewer jobs." So the pilots should subsidize high oil prices? I'll tell you what, if and when oil hit's $200/ brl, i'll work for free so the public can have cheap travel. My family can live in a homeless shelter so Joe Smith can take his family on their yearly trip to Cancun for $600.

"To address the fatigue; has the union offered some concession to management to help reduce pilot fatigue, maybe less pay but more time off amd more time with the family? What's more important?"
Concessions? You have got to be kidding right? It was the concessions wielded through the threat of a bankruptcy judge that got us the lovely 95hr schedules. Time with your family is important, but you have to be able to feed them. I'm a Captain responsible for hundreds of lives, but have to take a second job during my 12 days off to help partially pay for my kids college. A United Captain makes $138/ hr while a Southwest Captain makes $198/hr with much, much, much better schedules. These guys want concessions, buh buy airline.

"I agree these executives are greedy, but how far would the $175 million really go spread out among the 6500 pilots and other employees? Plus these executives have other options with other company's, they need some incentive to stay. Maybe Tilton and his cronies should go, but who's going to run it?" It's the principle of the $135 million, plus the rich contract UAL's two top leaders got one year ahead of their contracts amendable date. Look at Continental's Kellner, and Delta's Grinstein, They have displayed principle within the past years. Look at a pay comparison time line from 1980-2008 for pilots. Then look at the same time frame for UAL's ceo. It is mighty disgusting to see UAL as a personal ATM for senior management. Who's gonna run it? Hopefully someone else. This is a service industry where the senior management could care less about morale. Guess what that translates to? This airline management does not have the midas touch. There are people who can run UAL. When they are found, they will find an extremely proud group of employee willing and eager to restore this airline and treat each customer as a guest in their house.

Temple, this conversation is over. Hopefully you will find yourself on one of my flights, where I will safely fly you from point A to B and treat you like you are in a guest in my house.

Biased uninformed one-sided writing. Spend more than 5 minutes researching next time. What a clown.

Good for them! As an airline employee myself, I don't question management decisions, so don't question my overtime! ALL the airline are so flooded with "extra people" it's no wonder the whole industry is failing! The new craze "stratigic Leadership groups" what a waste of time and money! Everything requires and group to research something as simple as washing an aircraft, these people have to be paid, which takes away from the people who fly it, work on it, etc. The management if you were to look at it as a tier system, would look like an "upside down triangle" managers have supervisiors, supervisors have admin. assistances, admin. assistances have "runners", etc. you get the idea. Bottom line, it amounts to laziness that gets paid to hang out at work and take from those who care and truly make an honest effort! Good for United, I hope they shut the airline down and it causes all the CEO's and below to take a paycut, loose an extra home or one of their 25 cars, etc. Keep it up guys and gals!

This article states UAL is going to furlough 950 pilots. That is not true. They have stated they are going to cut 1450 pilots. The difference is 500 are on military leave or leaves of absence. That means that when they return to United, they will be fired with the rest. Go fight in Iraq or Afghanistan, and when you come back lose your job. They found a way to screw employees who aren't even here to complain about it. Way to go United Airlines (mis)management.

A friend of mine who is a United pilot made the following point to me recently (expands on what Joe said a little). Most of the guys calling in sick were only just recently recalled from the last furlough. They have been accruing sick time as all pilots do. The difference is that most of these First Officers calling in sick will soon be furoughed (again) and will likely lose all their accumulated sick time. These guys are not happy and many probably suspect they will never come back. Therefore it is simply a case of use or lose. It makes perfect sense.