as the guy from the guiness comercial says "Brilliant"

I was a big backer of the bail out until I was wiped out last night having very little left to lose I am now in favor of everyone else suffering along with me.

By the way I did not bet everything on washington Mutual 1 month ago I had stock in Lehman, Take-two, Washington Mutual, AIG and a hefty position in SKF,. Before that I was in Harris on the trade rumors, and Yahoo. I had a little gamestop and some THQI also.

amazingly I have enough money left that I can still afford a fire arm and some seeds so my future looks bright although I am not sure what I will do if the water is shut off to my home as I live in the dessert and I didn't set out the rain barrels during the monsoon season.

Well, does this administration rhyme with the Nixon admin?

Did not D1ck C. (because his name was disallowed by the site), Rummy and Paul W. all work there?

That and the rhyming stock chart? Disco is coming back. I can feel it.

Maybe they should handle the bailout, oh wait, we have Congress for that.

Here's a for-sure intermediate bailout plan that will buy Congress enough time to adopt Mr. Practical's most-effective solutions. There are at least 200 people (probably another 200 more) at 10 bankrupt companies who personally pocketed roughly a combined $50 billion over the past 5 years. A little harmless waterboarding should convince them to admit that they purposely over-cooked the derivatives markets, really did not deserve that income and would be more than happy to donate it to the bailout. It is perfectly legal.

Hysterical and and incredibly insightful stuff - I almost lost it on that container story piece. You all have your finger on the pulse and you're doing a great service.

If I come to your house (suppose we are neighbors) and ask for 1 million dollars, and tell you the following:
1. Don't ask how I am going to use the money.
2. Don't try to check how I am going to use the money.
3. You have to sign a note that you'll never sue me for this.
4. I may use the money to buy another neighbor's junks or his used car.
5. I may lose only half or all of your money, but I may be able to make a profit and return the money to you.

What would you think I am? Crazy?

If I add that if you don't do this, your house may be on fire later today or tomorrow. What would you think I am then?

According to what I've read elsewhere, Paulson didn't beg Pelosi to negotiate a deal. Paulson, both parties in the Senate, and Pelosi's House Dems were on board with the bailout.

What Paulson was begging for was for Pelosi to not go out in front of the cameras and tell the truth - that the deal was sabotaged by the more conservative elements of the House Republican caucus. Because telling that truth would derail negotiations to a fair thee well.

The bailout is incredibly unpopular on Main Street. But on Capitol Hill, almost everyone believes something has to be done. The goal, then, is to vote against the bill but still see it pass, then attack the other party for voting for what you believe deep down was a good bill. Hypocrisy of this sort occurs on Capitol Hill all the time. This time, the stakes are higher, and the House Republicans are pulling the stunt. Pelosi could 'win' by pulling Democratic support and forcing Bush & Paulson to pass a bill supported by Republicans and a few "renegade" (wink-wink) Democrats.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Paulson_kneels_before_Pelosi_begs_for_0926.html

This analogy seems to be relevant, to anyone who played pinball.

Tilt!
One pinball component that most players have come into contact with is the tilt sensor. The tilt sensor is there to make sure players don't cheat -- at least not too much, anyway. By shaking the machine, a player is able to influence how the ball travels down the playfield and score more points in the process. A skilled player knows exactly how much he is able to shake the machine without setting off the tilt sensor. The sensor consists of a metal ring with a cone-shaped pendulum bob hanging through the center of it.

There are also devices that look for slam tilts. A slam tilt is a heavy abuse of the game, usually in the form of someone picking the machine up or kicking the front end very hard. Registering one of these immediately ends the game

O.K. now "Jenny says Let it go!"

You're giving the Repubs too much credit for this thrust and parry. IF we are lucky, this legitimate GOP party split signals and marks the end of the practice of supply-side economic theory. After all, the original bailout proposal was the ultimate continuation of trickle economics. I think wisdom finally prevailed for these rebellious GOP members and they were essentially saying, "enough already, game over. This practice hasn't worked for the past 20 years of GOP administrations and it won't work now."

If gives the Repubs a clear shot at handwashing if this thing fails. The finger pointing will get real interesting next week.

35 years ago I was advised what a nice home a boxcar would make with the solar water heater aka barrel.

Now Hank Paulson worked for John Ehrlichman, while Greenspan ran wage and price controls.

How about some statues for the giants who played a large role in this movement to reality based pricing. John Paulson and David Einhorn are two names that spring to mind. Minyans must know more.

Andrew Cuomo is investigating the credit default swaps market.

Will he be investigating the purchasers of mis valued swaps, or the institutions that misvalued them?

World Workers On Organic Farms. There are plenty of them who need interns and most provide housing.

Set up a ring of those containers in South Dakota, preferably on top of nuclear missile silos and call it "New Washington". It will be where our leaders live and perform their duties from now on. Burn Falls Church and Crystal City and all of those other high-priced rent zones to the ground and turn D.C. into a museum.
They can start to live the way the 'cheap' labor in their corporate slaughterhouses are forced to travel to make those USDA-approved McBurgers they'll be eating.

The "Less Government" party can live in their idea of 'utopia' for a while without the hookers and lobbyists.

Did a little research - these steel boxes look like junkyard offices but out in LA there is an Architect who really knows what he's doing with these containers, here is the link that I found:
http://www.demariadesign.com/
The Redondo Beach house has me convinced but the CNN metal boxes look horrible.

Minyan Andy,

You can't put it any better than that.

That Paulson is on his knees begs the question---WHAT IS HE SO AFRAID OF AND WHY WON'T HE WARN US ???

WHERE IN THE FLYING FUGG IS THE F.B.I. ???

ANYONE HAVE THE PHONE NUMBER FOR THE F.B.I. IN WASHINGTON??? I NEED TO REPORT A CRIME, IT'S CALLED PERJURY BY PAULSON AND BERNANKE!!! THEY LIED UNDER OATH BEFORE CONGRESS!!!

WHERE IS THE STUPID F.B.I ???? HOW STUPID IS THE F.B.I. ??? THEY SHOULD BE IN LEHMAN BROTHERS OFFICE WITH GUNS!!!

LEHMAN BROTHERS REPORTED A PROFIT OF 489,000,000.00 FOR THE THREE MONTHS ENDED FEBRUARY 29, 2008!!! THEY RAISED AT LEAST 4 BILLION DOLLARS SELLING "STOCK" IN APRIL AND IT IS ALL GONE!!!!

THIS IS FRAUD!!!! D1CK FULD MUST BE ARRESTED BUT THE F.B.I. ARE TOO STUPID TO KNOW A CRIME WHEN IT IS RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES!!!!

DO YOU HEAR ME? YOU REPORT A PROFIT OF 489 MILLION AND THEN 6 MONTHS LATER YOU ARE BANKRUPT???

This indeed is the big lie.

But Kevin, what you seemingly fail to understand is that it is a lie everyone wants to believe. In fact, it is the lie they HAVE to believe because if we acknowledge that these investments are next to worthless then we need to acknowledge that the American Way of Life, as we know it, is over.

Now I, for one, believe it is high time for this 'American Way of Life'...this over consumptive, over polluting, over margined, disgraceful way of living to be over. In a 'global economy' it is unforgiveable for over half the world's population to be living on less than two dollars a day while we consume, with such arrogance and disdain, five times our fair share of the earth's natural resources. These are resources meant not just for people alive today but for future generations. If we are to be honest we would have to admit that the greed and gluttony of Americans over the past 30 years has been disgusting. The fact that it has been done on debt and the backs of the poor, suffering, oppressed people in countries where we have bribed the dictators who keep them in subjugation makes it all the more shameful.

But hey, we are citizens of the richest, most powerful country in the history of the world and we don't need no stinking shame.

Unfortunately, reality may beg to differ.

David we create value through using resources. The world isn't a zero sum game because we have they don't lose. The worlds poor are begining to benefit from our generosity and they will continue to benefit and their lives will improve with time and effort. Bill Gates and Bono are working very hard to wipe Malaria out through the use of mesquito nets and medicine. In the past we just never heard about the poor they just died quietly in Africa away from the world. Now we can save many of them and will save many millions of people. They need to learn our farming techniques so they can feed their people and that will come. But their lives will never improve if we shut down they have been suffering for generations there just wasn't anyone who cared.

I was reading in world ark magazine about a capitalist that has helped start many micro banks that help fund villagers for small projects that allow them to earn small amounts of money but it is the begining of an economy and theirs will grow just as ours has. The more effeciently that we produce stuff the more people can have it. If a small farmer grows enough food too feed his family and can sell some to his neighbors it frees them up to produce something else like baskets that may make it easier for the farmer to carry the food to market. since he can carry the food himself with the basket it may free his kids up to carry extra baskets which they can sell. Capitalism is a great thing and it compounds almost endlessly.

It is fascinating to watch most of the public being fooled by this pure theater, fake crisis play that is actually a fraud being perpetrated by the Secretary of the Treasury on the United States of America.

There is no crisis. What got us into this mess has been known for a long time: worthless paper.

Paulson himself, you will recall, was the CEO at Goldman Sachs when they began the most lucrative (and ironic) short-sale position in the history of the free world---shorting Mortgage-Backed Securities (MBS), the very same overpriced and often worthless paper that Paulson is begging us to buy now. Goldman Sachs has been heralded as "the most brilliant minds in investing, the best investment bank by far" for realizing first that MBS paper is ridiculously, and in the case of Bear Stearns and Lehman, even fraudulently, overpriced.

It is beyond belief that the F.B.I. has not arrested Paulson yet. He was rewarded hansomely for realizing this paper is useless, and now he is acting like a desperate criminal who just got a call from his loan shark, the most evil and oppressive government in the world, SAUDI ARABIA, HOME OF BIN LADEN AND 9/11 TERRORISTS WITH BIG MONEY, where they don't even allow women to drive. Saudis treat their women worse than dogs. They practice what is really "gender apartheid" (please look up on Wikipedia).

It is embarassing that we allow one of our "allies" to oppress their women, all in the name of OIL. Do not be fooled, Big Oil rules the unregulated shadow banking system and someone, perhaps China, is making a run on Paulson's unconstitutional bank, the Federal Reserve. The same Federal Reserve which just last week used the last 85 Billion dollars on its balance sheet to bail out AIG, who was already under investigation by the FBI !

That is really what the "crisis" is...it's really just the decision the Unied States must make now because we've finally maxed out our credit lines with Big Oil and China and Japan. The inevitable decision of do we start paying our debt now, or do we get cut off from Saudi Arabia who is sick and tired of their high inflation because of their dollar-linked assets?

To bail out the crooks that Paulson is begging us to do, we must print money, devaluing our dollar almost overnight, perhaps as much as 10 percent. Inflation runs wild again and who benefits the most from inflation? THE GOVERNMENT. Thomas Jefferson warned us this would happen. More Government has been proven to be the worst misallocation of capital a country can make, and we have "invested" 2-3 trillion a year into a government that is oppressing us.

To do the right thing and defend our dollar, the only answer is to say no to Paulson's fraudulent blackmail crime in progress and IMMEDIATELY SLASH GOVERNMENT SPENDING BY AT LEAST 10 PERCENT!!! It won't be difficult finding things to cut.

We MUST cut the budget. WE CAN NOT BORROW ANYMORE. Is Paul Volcker still alive or has Bernanke snuffed him?

What we have is a bubble in U.S. Dollars folks. Do not be fooled, the day of DEFLATION of this bubble is at hand.

There is still time; the Saudis and Chinese just want an answer. They just want to know how to value their dollars. They want to know if they will be worth more, or worth mush less. If much less, the Saudis will sell their oil to China. If more, they will sell it to the USA.

Never in my life (50+) have I been so discouraged and disillusioned about our country. Our finest minds have run the economy straight into the ground at high speed, and our elected leaders are entirely corrupt or too stupid to be. We have become a bickering, selfish, inbred national community that needs to be consumed by a calamity - and I think it's coming.

No offense intended Brad but to be a bit pedantic about it there is a long standng tradition of beginning fairy tales with 'Once upon a time'.

There is no defense for greed and gluttony, especially when compounded by ignorance and arrogance.

The people in third world countries aren't poor and oppressed because they are stupid or lazy.

Ask yourself this: if the United States is actually trying to spread 'freedom and democracy' around the world then why do we give billions in money and weapons to the dictators who keep these people in subjugation Why do we have military bases in 59 countries? Why in many loans to third world countries, from the IMF, is there a clause that requires them to keep wages below a certain level in order to obtain the loan?

In a National Intelligence Estimate a couple years ago (in an effort to profile future 'terrorists') the CIA stated: "The transformation of an individual to a terrorist is triggered by oppression, suffering, revenge, or desperation." My question is, why are the opressed, suffering, desperate people of the world our enemies instead of the corrupt regimes that are the source of their opression and suffering? Could it be that we are addicted to oil (and cheap labor and raw materials) and like any junkie we would sell our own mother into slavery for our next fix? Could it be that the grand principles of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence are just words on paper that we take out of their hermetically sealed containers to show the world that we are 'moral'...when times are good?

The earth's resources are not infinite and capitalism does not raise all boats. In fact the very premise of capitalism depends on there being economic classes of people. It also depends on infinite growth, like some giant Ponzi scheme, and unless we discover new beings on distant planets to exploit we will soon run out of new markets. A close examination of history shows, for anyone willing to see, that without slavery, in one form or another, all the great accomplishments of capitalism would have been impossible. Capitalism is not some magic box that generates wealth out of thin air. It is created on the backs of the poor and disenfranchised.

Capitalism's other great secret is that it depends on war for its continued existence. Without war and destruction to reset the game it would have been over long ago.

Capitalism does have its benefits but if you are even going to pretend to be objective you need to balance the ledger a little and maybe us Americans, who are currently the primary benefactors of this system, shouldn't be so exuberant in patting ourselves on the back for all our generosity and beneficence.

A subscription to Buzz & Banter, as well as one to Jeff Cooper have been a tremendous asset to me in maintaining an edge in an extremely difficult market. There are other premium products that are undoubtedly very good, but I haven't tried them yet.

Disclosure: No stock in any of the above mentioned products.

I am afraid that the House Republicans have slipped the poison pill into the bail-out. If the courts are prohited from putting pressure on the banks to re-write mortgages, there is very little incentive for banks to re-negotiate the mortgages. It is easier for the banks to foreclose and give them to Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam then dumps the homes at auction and the bottom of the depressed housing market tanks further so that more houses become uneconomic and get foreclosed. Can these guys tie their own shoes?????

Coincidence? I have investment accounts with USAA. Logged in this morning to look at them and they had this message:

"We are currently experiencing intermittent technical issues with investment account information displaying on usaa.com"

I called and asked if it was really a maintenance issue or if they shut it down to prevent a run on account withdrawals or transfers. The rep. said it was just "maintenance" but then said "Have you seen the statement by our chairman?" on confidence in the institution, etc.

Hmmm...very well may be a run on the banks and investments come Monday.

David you are like an atheist yelling out in a church that God does not exist. Why are you here? shouldn't you be wearing a bandana and squirting bodily fluids on a politician somewhere? Your ideas are completely misguided Capitlalism is economy at its most efficient. The worlds resources are nothing unless they are used. The planets resources are never used up they are simply reconfigured. Even oil is merely decayed biomass. You can hate America all you want but the reality is we make the world a better place. We are usually the first to respond to world crises and our freedom has allowed more of our citizens to become rich than any other system in the world. We take in millions of immigrants everyyear and give them every right our citizens have. We even go so far as to have water stations in our deserts to help keep illegal aliens alive.

This is no fairy tale this is America.

Our farming techniques DON'T WORK!! We have so much cheap food because we USED to have cheap oil. The microlenders in Africa and India work because they allow the peasants to use the techniques they have known worked on that piece of land for hundreds or thousands of years.

We didn't hear about all the starvation deaths before because they didn't happen on such massive scale until we urbanized the tribes and dumped cash into their cities so they could feed too many, causing their populations to explode in the 20th century, allowing us to exploit their competitive nature between tribes and install puppet dictators and put people to work in diamond and mineral mines for pennies a day.

Africa was no picnic before the West got so heavily involved, but we weren't invited anyway. Some of the modern ideas are good things, but many are just wrong for the places where they are applied, and a lot of the supposedly altruistic efforts end up being compromised by covert ops anyway.
Sometimes it is better to let that Ebola lie and not drive Landcruisers over every square inch of the planet.

Don't take it all too seriously, David. I'll do that for you.
Brad tends to believe very hard in what he is saying, and he isn't completely wrong. Capitalists believe in free markets and the Invisible Hand Job. It feels real good to go out and Win, knowing that others will benefit from our token generosity while we find all the comforts of our home, and theirs, under our feet.
The problem with this Blind Faith is that we don't have a free market, and the Mean Always Win. On average, we revert to the meanest and convince ourselves that it isn't 'US'.
To illustrate the point, simply look at our current administration, elected on the platform of 'conservatism', but riding on the magic carpet of violence, trying to prove that our violence is 'good' violence, and that we can be 'tougher than the tare-ists'.
Meanwhile, people need to keep living, but they don't need advertising, television, cars, boats, swimming pools, etc. The more of these things they have, the more convinced they are that they are missing 'something' that 'somebody else' might have which costs more. Few realize that what they are mostly missing is not money, or that Democracies and Economies are not an end in themselves. Democracy does not automatically make one free, and a lot of money does not automatically put food on a plate.
Just because our System is big doesn't mean it is right or even functioning. There's a mining shovel built by Bucyrus Erie sitting in Ohio right now that was too big to fix and too big to take apart. That's our current economy and government.

What was I thinking? You are right. We are truly God's chosen people and the rest of the life forms on this planet ought to be thankful for our handouts.

I just have one problem. Why is it I have this vague feeling you didn't address even one of my questions?

At least I now know that I am misguided. I know because you told me so.

As for why I'm here, isn't that the eternal question?

Why are any of us here if not to exploit our fellow man. I suppose its as good a philosophy of life as any.

Thanks for the enlightenment.

David_ I dont care if people are thankful for my handouts. You want your questions addressed here you go.

Ask yourself this: if the United States is actually trying to spread 'freedom and democracy' around the world then why do we give billions in money and weapons to the dictators who keep these people in subjugation

Please site an instance where we as America have given weapons to a dictator. I can name a few. We gave weapons to Saddam Huissane a few years ago to keep Iran in check. At the time we were fearful of Iran taking down Iraq and marching right on through to Saudi Arabia. Most of the countries we give weapons to are not dictatorships they are usually democracies and they need the weapons to defend themselves against their enemies. In the cases where we work with dictatorships it is to preserve our own interests. We work towards a free world but sometimes it is not possible to just ignore the realities of the planet. Did you know that the united states prevents its business people from bribing foreign leaders? This puts us at a huge disadvantage in dealing with a lot of countries. Haliburton under Cheney fired one of its brightest stars precisely because Cheney suspected he was bribing foreign officials. Oh I know Cheney is evil quit reading the moveon.org websites and do some real fact finding.

Why do we have military bases in 59 countries?
Because we believe in protecting our interests we are a nation and we have legitimate interests to protect. We also protect allied countries and it is a lot easier to maintain a presence than set up shop everytime we need to act.

Why in many loans to third world countries, from the IMF, is there a clause that requires them to keep wages below a certain level in order to obtain the loan?

The imf is run by the UN not the United states but the provision is to insure we are giving aid to countries that need it. I think many of the UN's mandates are ridiculous and if it was up to me I would pull us out. I have no idea why such a provision would exist in fact I would love to see evidence of one and the justification. Are you sure this isn't just some propaganda you are spewing. Maybe the language reads (we will continue aid until which time said nation can raise there wages to the equivalant of 2 dollars a day.) Not because they are trying to keep wages down but because they don't want aid to continue forever but obviously like much legislation it has a different effect than originally intended.

My question is, why are the opressed, suffering, desperate people of the world our enemies instead of the corrupt regimes that are the source of their opression and suffering?

The oppressed etc are not our enemies until they decide to detonate themselves in a market or join a Jihad against us. We have worked very hard to make people in Iraqs life better restoring electricity, providing food and medicine and getting the plumbing working. We do not consider the Iraqis our enemies we considered their former government our enemies and after we overthrew it we attempted to make peace with the population as quickly as possible. Of course many mistakes were made but we never had the Iraqi citizen pencilled in as an enemy. The same is true for afganistan.

Could it be that we are addicted to oil (and cheap labor and raw materials) and like any junkie we would sell our own mother into slavery for our next fix?

Oil is as much apart of our life as oxygen we are not addicted to it it is a necessity for our survival. You may resent that but it is a fact without oil our society comes crashing down. I know you would prefer to farm your own field by hand and you are welcome to do it but please shut off your computer and save a little energy if your gonna live that life.

Could it be that the grand principles of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence are just words on paper that we take out of their hermetically sealed containers to show the world that we are 'moral'...when times are good?

It is what we live by it doesn't make us good or bad it just gives us a boundry and a starting point that prior to those documents didn't exist for the common man. The wisdom behind those documents is well documented and accepted by most of society so I will not bore you with the details but let me be clear the documents spell out what it means to be an american if you don't believe in them you are free to leave.

The earth's resources are not infinite and capitalism does not raise all boats. In fact the very premise of capitalism depends on there being economic classes of people. It also depends on infinite growth, like some giant Ponzi scheme, and unless we discover new beings on distant planets to exploit we will soon run out of new markets. A close examination of history shows, for anyone willing to see, that without slavery, in one form or another, all the great accomplishments of capitalism would have been impossible. Capitalism is not some magic box that generates wealth out of thin air. It is created on the backs of the poor and disenfranchised.

This is a lot to bite off in one chunk but let me try. Capitalism does not create nor destroy resources it merely divides them up and is the most effecient system for distributing them. I could quote Jeremy Bentham if I was smart enough to remember anything he said but the bottom line is Capitalism frees up wealth and keeps it flowing. Wealth in the form of a dollar is simply an exchange of paper for work. But the beauty of capitalism in its current form is it allows men to keep the fruits of their labor which motivates them towards better and more efficent ways of producing things. The more a single person can produce the more there will be for everyone! When Bill gates harnessed the power of the computer he made it so one secretary could do the work of three. Typing became much faster and document retrieval became far less labor intensive this means that the other two secretaries can work for a different company or can do something else entirely. Liberals complain that the two secretaries get layed off. Conservatives see that this is ok as they are no longer needed in that field so they must and will begin to do something else maybe start their own businesses.

About Slavery Yes it was terrible and it can be argued that the repercussions are still with us to this day. But we no longer have slaves in fact decendants of slaves have risen up to be leaders in business and presidents of Universities I believe that is a testament to this great country. Slaves could even buy their own freedom thanks to capitalism. I am not saying this is right but Capitalism was not the bad guy it was slavery itself that was the evil.

Capitalism's other great secret is that it depends on war for its continued existence. Without war and destruction to reset the game it would have been over long ago.

Capitalism flourishes in times of peace and war. War has existed since the begining of time. The more aligned you are with an enemies economic philosophy the less likely you are to go to war. There has rarely if ever been a war involving two Democracies. I would venture to guess one of the great factors in future world peace will be international corporations that have too much too lose if the underlying nations go to war.

Capitalism does have its benefits but if you are even going to pretend to be objective you need to balance the ledger a little and maybe us Americans, who are currently the primary benefactors of this system, shouldn't be so exuberant in patting ourselves on the back for all our generosity and beneficence

This is the one point I agree with you on. a little honest self reflection is not only healthy but necessary. Our country has made many mistakes but I believe we are always moving forward trying to right the wrongs we have commited and will continue to do so.

I know I can't sway your opinion so the only reason I babble on is because I am hoping someone else reads this and sides a little closer to me than you. Maybe I am the resident Periah here in the ville but I figured on a site like this capitalists should atleast have their side heard unlike 99% of the internet.

Brad, I don't know how to break this to you but on each and every point you are 100 percent wrong.

Thanks to the media you (and most Americans) have no idea what the 'war on terror' is actually about. It is about Muslim people living in subjugation under dictators that the United States supports wanting self-determination and to be free of our interference.

I am dumbfounded that you don't know the names of at least some of the dictators we pay off every year.

How about King Abdullah and the Saudi Royal family...we have sold them all kinds of weapons. They live like kings while their citizens still get their hands cut off for stealing a loaf of bread. They make the Taliban look like girl scouts.

How about Mubarak of Egypt...we give him billions in aid every year and he is as brutal to his people as Saddam Hussein ever was. He has been 'President' for 30 years and now (for example) Ayman Nour is rotting in jail because he had the audacity to run against Mubarak in the last 'election'.

How about Musharraf of Pakistan...we gave him billions to sell out his own people. McCain and other Republicans, are on record as saying 'yes, he's a dictator, but he's our dictator'.

The list goes on and on. How about Jintao of China who is our biggest trading partner or Qaddafi who is now our buddy or Karimov of Uzbekistan who even Condoleezza Rice lamented having to do business with just because he has oil or Pinochet of Chile or the Shah of Iran or Trujillo of the Dominican Republic or Suharto of Indonesia or Noriega before he turned on us or even the leaders of Syria, Kuwait, Morocco or Jordan for that matter.

I mean, gosh all mighty, pick up a book and read already.

What are these 'interests' you say we are protecting with our military bases around the world. Why do other countries not protect their interests by having bases in the United States?

You have drank the kool-aid and have one of the worst cases of true-believerism I have ever seen. You see capitalism as a religion and me as an atheist.

The IMF insists on keeping wages low in third world countries to make their goods and services cheap for us (and the rest of the 1st world hierarchy) to buy. It isn't a lie. Its just something you won't hear on Fox (or any of the mainstream media for that matter).

Capitalism doesn't destroy resources per se but rather the greed and gluttony that so often accompany it. In what sense is it fair for 5% of the world's population to consume 25% of its resources?

The Constitution and Declaration of Independence are great documents but my point is that we seem to only live up to their principles when it is convenient for us. This is such common knowledge that there is even a well known excuse ('the Constitution isn't a suicide pact'). I studied pre-law and political science in college and was disgusted to learn that even at the level of the Supreme Court politics and expediency come well ahead of justice and any reasonable reading of the Constitution.

Slavery is far from dead. Do you think over half the people of the world enjoy living on less than 2 dollars a day? Do you think illegal immigrants from Mexico enjoy leaving their homes, friends and relatives to come here to do our grunge work while they are pesrecuted and looked down on due to bigotry and arrogance just so that they earn enough money to feed their families?

When the only alternative to being used to make their corporate masters rich is for them to let their families starve it seems to me that while this might not meet the strict definition of slavery it is a distinction without a difference.

Try walking in the shoes of the majority of people in third world countries and then explain the difference to slavery to me.

As for capitalism requiring war for its continuation, again, please do some reading and maybe you will discover the untold fortunes banks around the world have made from financing both sides of most wars. Think about how the manufacture of all the weapons and the costs of rebuilding from all the construction add to GDP...that grand number that is supposedly the scoreboard in this corrupt game.

BTW, capitalism has nothing to do with democracy. China is growing into the largest capitalist country in the world but even the Bush administration isn't going to call it a democracy.

The truth is, I am not even against capitalism, just the excesses of capitalism, the way its practiced in the 21st century and the illusion of prosperity built on debt we have been living these past 30+ years.

I want to live in a country I can be proud of because of its principles not one that gives me a standard of living so far above most other people of the earth as to make me embarrassed and ashamed. Who can be proud of a coutry so gluttonous it is literally killing itself with the deseases of over consumption: Obesity, diabetes and heart disease?

David Our posts have become far too long to be of interest to anyone but us. In the interest of peace and harmony I am going to bow out of this conversation. I am sure we will butt heads again many times but just know I do not consider you an enemy just a fellow person trying to figure it all out in a big nasty world. I wish you luck my friend in making the world a better place I will try from my end and you can try from yours as long as it gets better we will have done more than most.

By the way I greatly admire Bono from U2 who is on the opposite side of the field politically from me but he puts everything he has into making the world a little better and he has succeeded far beyond what most people thought he could do.

http://www.nytimes.co m/2008/09/23/business/w orldbusiness/23krona.html

This is from truth out website. sweden response to 1992 housing crisis, You will have to take out the spaces in the link as I could not post as the link was to long.

JPM

This has never been personal from my perspective either.

I have one agenda, the truth. I am not a Democrat or a Republican and I despise arguments that devolve into these two failing points of view.

In the coming days and years this country, and people around the world, will need to come together like never in our history to work through the excesses of the last 30 years. The only alternative will be war, destruction and misery.

Let's hope that we all can find our common humanity in this crisis and that the world ends up a better place for all its inhabitants.